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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
10-20-2011, 06:05 AM
The main issue is that boosting lower players in level is not enough; the Borg need to scale in level and power based on the original levels of the players and their numbers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
10-20-2011, 06:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8 View Post
I've substantiated the need for lower level players restrictions in previous comments, not in the thread you quoted. For the sake of our debate however, let me repeat them & expand on them.

Issue: Lower tier ships handicap a team.

No they don't.

I think you can enter Borg Incursions at Lt Comm 6.

A Tier 2 ship Saber has:
3 forward & 1 aft weapons
1 Eng, 2 Tac, & 1 Sci consoles
4 BO Stations

A tier 5 Defiant has
4 forward & 3 aft weapons,
2 Eng, 4 Tac, & 2 Sci consoles
12 BO Stations

Now Cryptic helps lower level players in Borg incursions by bumping them up to level 45 stats. A Lt Comm on a team instead of a VA however shorted that team 3 weapons, 4 consoles, & 8 stations.

Issue: To many lower level player on a team create to many failed missions.
Using the math above, the more lower level ships a team has, the more DPS & BO skills it loses. At some point you can't successfully complete a mission.

What has this crap nonesense about lost consoles and added phaser strips got to do with an equal level threat? thats the whole point in it being equal, not because of extra slots or firepower.

Issue: Lower level players don't have enough experience and handicap a team.
I'll have to compromise on this issue and agree with you that there are just as many VAs contributing to the problem. A VA rank doesn't necessarily mean someone is a "good" player. Given a choice though, I prefer having a VA with poor playing skills over a low level player. The added DPS & skills are more advantageous to completing a Borg incursions IMO.

You read like an ignorant elitist who has no idea of what the hell he is saying! the difference between a rubbish VA player and a good LT player is no difference what so ever, you basically blew your own point out the water by stating that they are both equal, and to add on the invalidity of your point, you simply state that because someone flies a Miranda, Centaur or Shi'khar condemns them as useless


This senerio supports my viewpoint more than yours. You won an incursion with 2 VAs, 1 Capt, 1 Comm, & 1 Lt Comm. Lower the rank of one of those players & you probably lose the battle. Lower the rank of 2, 3, or 4 players & you definitely lose. Therefore rank does matter.

What a load of bull! I bet if you sent in a pile of LT only players, even they would succeed. it has nothing to do with rank or ship.


This statement is inaccurate. Cryptic has stated Borg Incursions are DSEs. The skill boosts for lower level players, & the accolades & emblems for VAs are insentives to play the incursions. Nowhere has Cryptic written the incursions are power leveling missions. I would suggest however that one reason the incursion are available to most ranks is an attempt to increase membership.

The 'idea' of the incursions is to add a storyline, that the borg are here and will be a threat for a while to come as a part of the GO and STF's. The 'idea' again was designed for all levels to combat the borg and save the federation, in order to do this and heavility implied by the skill XP zones and higher rewards for killing borg ships off, that it was meant to be a rewarding experience for everyone.

It was never an attempt to increase membership otherwise it would of been released at F2P and besides this, it adds to the game with another twist by bringing players together of all levels to team up and fight the borg.


I don't want an "I WIN" button either. Like you, I've won my share of incursions with no time left on the clock as well. Those victories I enjoyed more than any other. I've also lost my share of incursions too. But if I'm going to lose, I want it to be on a "fair" playing field. And that's the issue we're debating. Borg incursions contain a broken game mechanic that can unfairly keep players from completing the mission successfully. It's bad enough that selfish players create losses already.

On a ' "fair" playing field'. Ok describe the word 'normal' to me then? Here i will point it out to you like your version of Fair. It's how you alone perceive something to be standard and typical, so what ever that means to you will not or may not apply to everyone else. In other words, You expect a fair fight to come on a plate? you have to find that fair fight first and since you refuse to give the LT's the fair fight on your team...

In closing, if I see you all in a Borg incusion some day, I'll be happy to fly into battle with you anytime.
My reply in red.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
10-20-2011, 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xautos
What a load of bull! I bet if you sent in a pile of LT only players, even they would succeed. it has nothing to do with rank or ship.
I disagree. 5 LT level ships will struggle against a spawn of probes let alone the command ship and they do massively reduce the damage output of the team. The only disagreement I have with Imaginos_8 is whether it actually requires the damage output of 5 top tier ships and whether lower tier players should be restricted, otherwise I agree with much of what he says.

Just as a note, I've actually been in an instance before where there was a single LTC and 4 LTs. Although the 4 mobs were cleared with time to spare it just wasn't happening against the command ship, we just couldn't dent the Regen probes before they healed the command ship back up. But if there was one good cannon equipped VA Tac/Escort in there it would have been completed without too much trouble.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
10-20-2011, 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naevius
The main issue is that boosting lower players in level is not enough; the Borg need to scale in level and power based on the original levels of the players and their numbers.
I wholeheartedly agree with this statement
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
10-20-2011, 08:53 PM
I need to update a previous comment I made. I had said Borg Incursions can be accessed at level 6. That was true at launch. After reviewing the STO forum though, I found a Dev post that stated access was increased to level 10.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
This assumes that the DPS from 5 T5 ships is required when it clearly isn't. I've been in instances where I've been the only VA and had 4 LT/LTC in with me and still defeated the command ship yet been in some where the group was made of 5 VAs and they didn't even come close to defeating the command ship. The difference is team work, not BO slots and weapon hardpoints.
You missed the point (and left out the additional comments under the thread you quoted). What I was trying to explain was in general, (regardless of what type it is) a Tier 2 ship has less weapons & console slots than a Tier 5 ship. The more lower level ships a team has, the more equipment & skills it loses. These losses in turn reduce a teams chance for completing a Borg incursion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
Not necessarily. These DSEs are DPS races and that group was a very low damage group (the Cruisers were all heal boats but weren't healing the either me or the Sabre). What a lot of these Cruiser captains don't seem to realise is that a T2/T3 Escort with CRF (with the boosted damage and captain skills) is still going to be dealing at least as much damage if not more than a Cruiser, the Akira will easily out damage a T5 cruiser anyway unless it's running with DEM, 125 weapons and EWP but not many do. For me as an Escort user, I dread a group full of cruisers because I know I likely won't receive a heal but they'll still be contributing very little damage, in those cases i'd be happy to take an Akira in the place of a T5 cruiser.
Ok in your previous comment you said DPS isn't important. In this comment you say it is. Then you said teamwork is important but you would dread being on a team of cruisers? What about teamwork? In general I think we would both agree victory involves a balance of skill, equipment, & teamwork. Lose to much of one or more however and at some point you can't compensate enough with the others to succeed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
The only Borg DSEs I run these days are on my low level characters because the incentive is useful for them, for my VAs it's useless, I already have over 1 million BO skill points across the VAs so really don't need more. The Accolades are nice to have but offer little other than a title but even for an accolade hunter you only need one victory in each sector
As you commented, the Borg Incursions offer a number of rewards. You're aware then, that you receive SP regardless of whether you win or lose. That's why you don't see any problem. In a previous thread, I suggested SP & accolade points be accumulated & rewarded only if a Borg Invasion was completed successfully. Under this scenario, any rank can play (this is your position). Win, and everyone enjoys the spoils of victory. Lose and we all go down together. Sounds fair to me. You disagreed. Why, because it affected YOUR ability to gain SP. You then went on to write

"I could live with this (points for victory) if there was some way to measure someone's usefulness on a team or in a group but with these failing due to inept and selfish higher level players I don't see why a low level player should have to waste time only to get no skill points for a failure."

You've stated a number of times you're willing to accept losses. Now they're a problem for you? You're an experienced player. Do you really believe high level players are the bigger cause of failed Borg incursions than low level players? If statistics proved it's actually lower level players that are responsible for the majority of Borg incursion losses, how many would you have to lose before you agreed they should be restricted? If you're going to be honest, I'm sure there's a number if it directly affected your ability to receive rewards.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
10-20-2011, 09:31 PM
Last night I was in a Red Alert with my lowbie toon, everyone else was also between L10 - Commander. We had no trouble at all doing the mission and taking everything out that we needed too. So I say to you bleeding whinny RA's out there go crawl back under your rock out there and let everyone enjoy our game without you throwing a fit like a 4 year old.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
10-20-2011, 10:13 PM
if you want to do the red alters do it with ur friends and or fleet mates if it is bothers you soo badly. the red alerts are made for is to help people to lvl alts and new players getting to va plus hopefully learning the right way of facing the borg while not getting elitist jorks like you who demeans them for fallowing your poor team work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
10-21-2011, 12:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
You missed the point (and left out the additional comments under the thread you quoted). What I was trying to explain was in general, (regardless of what type it is) a Tier 2 ship has less weapons & console slots than a Tier 5 ship. The more lower level ships a team has, the more equipment & skills it loses. These losses in turn reduce a teams chance for completing a Borg incursion.
I didn't miss the point. Counting consoles and BO slots assumes they're all needed but they aren't, a single VA Escort on a team with well played LTCs can easily clear these as long as the escort does its job of dealing lots of damage and the LTCs do as much as they can. A team of LTcs can wear a command ship down but can't break the healing of the Regen probes. A T5 Escort should have no such problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
Ok in your previous comment you said DPS isn't important. In this comment you say it is. Then you said teamwork is important but you would dread being on a team of cruisers? What about teamwork? In general I think we would both agree victory involves a balance of skill, equipment, & teamwork. Lose to much of one or more however and at some point you can't compensate enough with the others to succeed.
DPS is clearly important as you have limited time to destroy a set number of HP. Teamwork is important to ensure the regen probes are quickly destroyed and the Escorts (who are dealing by far the bulk of the damage) are supported but invariably a team of cruisers is a team of captain Kirks who don't heal, don't focus fire and have limited DPS. I dread those teams of cruisers because I know how the DSE's going to end as soon as I spawn in and it's invariably for the same reason every time; they don't apply their limited DPS to the same shield facing, instead they'll be all over the map circling around trying to destroy a regen probe that's in a healing cycle (so almost invincible) whilst getting further and further from the command ship, and usually closer and closer to the spawn point.
I agree these require a balance of skill (to manage heals so you aren't left short when you scrape an escape from a huge spread), Equipment and Team work (which is by far the most important) but usually a group of cruiser will display none of those. Some are excellent, putting out good damage and tanking like crazy, but they're few and far between.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
As you commented, the Borg Incursions offer a number of rewards. You're aware then, that you receive SP regardless of whether you win or lose. That's why you don't see any problem. In a previous thread, I suggested SP & accolade points be accumulated & rewarded only if a Borg Invasion was completed successfully. Under this scenario, any rank can play (this is your position). Win, and everyone enjoys the spoils of victory. Lose and we all go down together. Sounds fair to me. You disagreed. Why, because it affected YOUR ability to gain SP. You then went on to write
I am aware there are numerous awards and accolades involved with these DSEs. Suggesting I only disagree with you that low tier players should be restricted because it would affect my own levelling doesn't help your case, by the end of next week my last character will be a VA and I'll then be running them through the DSEs as a VA and likely still be here arguing low tier players should not be restricted from using them.
My main disagreement is not that there should be no risk, it's that the failure isn't always the fault of a low tier player.
To clarify, a certain amount of HP and healing has to be overcome within the allotted time, so a certain amount of DPS is required. I don't believe for a second that this even comes close to the damage of 5 VAs, so the presence of LTCs is not important. The issue is that the more LTCs on a team the more the VAs are required to step up. But the VAs don't step up, this is why I don't believe lower tier ships should be punished.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
You've stated a number of times you're willing to accept losses. Now they're a problem for you? You're an experienced player. Do you really believe high level players are the bigger cause of failed Borg incursions than low level players? If statistics proved it's actually lower level players that are responsible for the majority of Borg incursion losses, how many would you have to lose before you agreed they should be restricted? If you're going to be honest, I'm sure there's a number if it directly affected your ability to receive rewards.
I'm happy to accept a loss as long as the group worked together well, I like that these are unpredictable because the rest of STOs PvE is so mind numbingly easy outside of the STFs that I could run most mission asleep.My only problem, as previously stated, is when the group does nothing that even resembles team work. It's not that LTCs are always awesome and focus their limited firepower to defeat the target, it's that when they don't do their bit properly then it comes down to the VAs firepower. Even a group of coordinated Cruisers can take these DSEs with ease yet most don't coordinate so they fail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Imaginos_8
Do you really believe high level players are the bigger cause of failed Borg incursions than low level players?
No, I believe VAs that don't know how to play their class are the biggest cause of these failures. Although you don't need 5 VAs to complete them, the fewer VAs in the instance the harder those present are going to have to work. I suspect our only disagreement is over the actual effectiveness of those low level players. I've found that if I just ask them to focus with you they will, especially if they're new as they'll follow someone they see as more experienced whereas the Kirks will continue as normal and get those that are willing to help (some of those low level players) a bad name by whining in every channel they can find about low level ships ruining there instance. Unfortunately it's always someone else's fault so they'll never learn from their mistakes and consequently never improve.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
10-21-2011, 01:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
I suspect our only disagreement is over the actual effectiveness of those low level players.
I totally agree friend
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
10-22-2011, 04:56 PM
No I don't think the Red Alerts should be restricted at all. From a story perpective when Starfleet hears that there's a crapton of borg cubes invading alpha quadrent they are NOT gonna be choosy on who can come help stop the borg menace (A similar invasion is what allowed all of our respective captains to acquire our first ships remember?).

From a metagame perpective teamwork issues are prevalent through any MMO or raid action and as one of those low level players in those red alerts I know that i'm focusing on the probes not because im "farming" but because that's the only thing it appears that I can damage without help in those events and hopefully still be useful while the RA/VA big boys deal with the cubes and the command ship.
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