Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 511
10-23-2011, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SHARKFORCE View Post
STO is for a lot of people their first MMO,and the reason is Star Trek.Would I have played this game if it wasn't Trek?Hell no. And like you,I don't WANT to leave either......but Cryptic/PWE are driving me to that decision.
snip.
This is a really good point.

My most of my fleet is made up of people for whom STO was/is their first MMO. These aren't your hardcore WOW types. These aren't your grind & raid types. These are people whose social gaming experience before STO was playing Mario Kart, Rock Band, or the original social gaming - Cards and Board games.

This is definitely something for whoever from Cryptic is reading this to keep in mind and funnel up the chain. If you treat these people like hardcore gamers, you will lose them and their purchases.

For many of us the only reason we are here is because we like Star Trek. Don't forget that and don't abuse it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 512
10-23-2011, 07:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KlausWulfenbach View Post
I understand that the reason for including dilithium in crafting is that without more things to raise demand for dilithium, people won't spend c-points on dilithium and the whole economy will shut down, and time-players won't have access to c-store ships without paying directly. Lowering the non-=dilithium material component requirements some would allow crafting to take comparable, (or slightly longer) times, without reducing the demand for dilithium. It might even raise it, by lowering the bar for how long it takes before you have enough stuff that investing dilithium in crafting makes sense, rather than waiting for loot drops.


This may have been suggested, but one way to save fleet crafting, if not the rest of the crafting system, i to create a "craft for other" command or temporary bank or something. Player 1 (the client) sends a request to player 2 (the crafter). The client must already have all the required materials, the schematic and the dilithium. The crafter hits "craft for other" and the items vanish from the client's bank, and the item appears there. If cryptic really wants to limit things they could make it bind at that point.
that wouldnt change anything. just creates more of headache.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 513 F I A W O L?
10-23-2011, 07:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_Armstrong View Post
STO isn't "just another game" for me, either. While I have played plenty other MMOs, I really wanted this one to be special. Because it fused together two loves of mine: Star Trek and online gaming. Star Trek is practically a way of life for me. When I found out that Perpetual had acquired the rights to make an MMO out of it I couldn't believe it and followed it since. I WANTED a Trek MMO ever since I started playing them with Dark Age of Camelot. Sadly, the one true attempt is being flushed down the toilet due to poor marketing decisions.
To reply to yourself and Katic, while I've always been a Trek fan and have owned or played every Trek computer game that's been out, along with the various incarnations of tabletop Trek RPG's stretching back to the early days of FASA, this isn't my first MMO.

With the advent of Evercrack and other games, I was hesitant to get into MMOs, at least until City of Heroes. That game was, until they've gone F2P as well, my first game of choice and one I've paid a yearly sub to (No LTS there!) for over 7 years.

While Champions was my first superhero tabletop paper & dice game and ignited my love of the superhero genre (including the Marvel RPG, Silver Age Sentinels [RIP] etc.), CO I really only bought to get into the closed Beta for STO. It didn't engage me the way CoH did.

But...CO seems to have figured out how to do F2P RIGHT, from the start. Why there seems to be such a degree of cruft in the lauch of the STO F2P, even if it's a Test server, confuses me.

That being said, I do understand people who have honestly gotten into MMOs because of STO...when I heard Perpetual was going to launch this game originally back in the dark ages of the '00's, I even applied to work for them, thinking that could put me even closer to Trek, and my love of gaming.

Since this post is getting into TL : DR for some, suffice it to say, since the lauch of STO, and even CO, I've been trying to get my online gaming friends to try it, or even friends/family who are Trek fans, but not even close to being online gamers, excited about F2P, knowing I could at least try to get them into the games via F2P and they might like it.

With all the "improvements" to the game, there's no way someone who is truly in the demo. of a "casual online gamer" is going to find a grindfest of any interest to them, and they'll either be a statistic of people who abandon a character within a few months of trying the game, or just not bother even trying it at all because it will look like work to them to play a game.

Too many of these changes don't seem to make it worthy of an investment in time, money, or both.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 514
10-23-2011, 07:53 PM
Count me in as part of the "unsilent majority" that hates this BS. I agree with others who expressed that the purpose of crafting was to give viable alternatives (READ: NOT cheaper but alternate) to Di stores/raids/cstores/whatever. Adding Di to crafting is simply a lazy attempt at double dipping by charging 2 times for "time" currency. It certainly destroys any social aspect of crafting (crafting for fleet mates or friends), which is a time honored tradition in mmo's.

If changes must be made, here are my ideas:

- raise and diversify the amount of anomalies and traces needed
- incorporate a success/failure rate to crafting
- allow Di to make up for shortfalls in anomalies (if you're short a few anomalies or a trace or something, the difference can be paid for in Di)

I don't know. Tribble has shown me some troubling signs of things to come. To be fair, the DOFF system is wonderful, even if it is the sum total of the upcoming new content. However, the FE integration into the main story is awful. They don't fit. It locks out people who haven't done all the main story missions (which weren't very good anyway). The new ship fiasco was embarrassing. I've tried my best to be the "can't say something nice don't say anything" guy, but this is horrible. When this hot mess goes live, I'm seeing very little carrot and a whole lot of stick.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 515
10-23-2011, 08:56 PM
They want to change crafting? My solution was posted in another thread, and I don't want to violate Forum rules by directly quoting myself, so I'll just give you the basics. Just so you know, this was inspired by posts here by Jack_Armstrong and Leviathan99

It's never made sense to me to have us crafting with Anomalies. We find "Alien Artifacts" and use them to make what now? How many times did we ever hear Spock, Scotty, Data, or Geordi say "well, we've found this strange device, we don't know who made it, or what it's purpose was, but we're going to integrate it into the ship intentionally, and, failing that, we'll patch it into a piece of ground equipment".. Um.. Never? Yeah, I'm pretty sure "never" is the answer there.

So here's what we do, we rename some of the anomalies, and include a new catagory of items similar to Commodities gather-able through the Doff system and loot-able as drops. Things like Deuterium, Duranium, Beryllium, Gadolinium, Titanium, Tritium, Transparant Aluminum, you name it.

We gather these various materials and a few sensible anomalies (Antimatter for Photon Torpedoes, Plasma Samples for Plasma-based Weaponry for ground/space, etc..), and we construct components.

These components will be varied, and will differ from recipe to recipe, using existing items in the game for inspiration.

Lets say you want to craft a new Impulse Engine. The Schematic (findable as a drop or buy able for EC) calls for: Duranium and Plasma Samples for the Impulse Reactor (fusion-based), Tritium and Duranium for the Impulse Driver Coils, and Beryllium and Titanium for the Impulse Manifold. Once you've combined all those for the componants, you can then create the Impulse Engine. More advanced Impulse Engines (higher quality) require more materials, and better Impulse Engines (Hyper, Combat, Efficient) require more components (additional Driver Coils, for instance).

Now, this does add to the grind, but seeing as how there will be fewer Anomalies, and Doff system integration (and all the materials should be tradeable/sell-able/unbound) it will still work to complicate the system and discourage the mass-production of items because now the materiels will be more numerous and varied and the process of crafting itself will have a few more steps thrown in.

I'm not envisioning a time-factor in crafting, but if it took 30 minutes to an hour to craft each component, and 1-2 hours to assemble the final product, I wouldn't see it as such a bad thing so long as you could craft multiple objects at once (say, five end-products at a time, and up to 12 components at a time).

Now, here's what makes the penny-pinchers at PW happy: A Dilithium store. If you don't have the materials or EC to buy them, you can skip that step and buy the fully-completed components from a Vendor at Memory Alpha/Qonos, for Dilithium. The thing is, the Vendor prices the Components individually at such a price that buying the gear direct from a Dilithium Vendor on ESD/Qonos is cheaper than buying the ready-made components and assembling it.

Crafters can craft, even for fleets, grinders can grind and craft, and those uninterested in Crafting at all get better deals by grinding for the gear directly through the Dilithium stores on ESD/Qonos.

And, the people who don't want to grind Dilithium don't have to to craft. But the people who want to craft as quickly as possible still have the Dlithium-C-Store cash-railroad PW wants so much. And Crafting will finally make IP-sense in how it works.

Throw in some C-Store shortcuts (crafting slots, random bags of mats/componants, shortcut devices that half or eliminate the time-delay associated with crafting) and PW gets what they want, Players get what they want, Fleet Crafting still exists, and the Crafting system is improved and made more interesting to boot.

It's a win-win-win!

EDIT: I've expanded on this idea further and explained it in more detail over in General Community Feedback.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 516
10-23-2011, 09:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
They want to change crafting? My solution was posted in another thread, and I don't want to violate Forum rules by directly quoting myself, so I'll just give you the basics. Just so you know, this was inspired by posts here by Jack_Armstrong and Leviathan99

It's never made sense to me to have us crafting with Anomalies. We find "Alien Artifacts" and use them to make what now? How many times did we ever hear Spock, Scotty, Data, or Geordi say "well, we've found this strange device, we don't know who made it, or what it's purpose was, but we're going to integrate it into the ship intentionally, and, failing that, we'll patch it into a piece of ground equipment".. Um.. Never? Yeah, I'm pretty sure "never" is the answer there.

So here's what we do, we rename some of the anomalies, and include a new catagory of items similar to Commodities gather-able through the Doff system and loot-able as drops. Things like Deuterium, Duranium, Beryllium, Gadolinium, Titanium, Tritium, Transparant Aluminum, you name it.

We gather these various materials and a few sensible anomalies (Antimatter for Photon Torpedoes, Plasma Samples for Plasma-based Weaponry for ground/space, etc..), and we construct components.

These components will be varied, and will differ from recipe to recipe, using existing items in the game for inspiration.

Lets say you want to craft a new Impulse Engine. The Schematic (findable as a drop or buy able for EC) calls for: Duranium and Plasma Samples for the Impulse Reactor (fusion-based), Tritium and Duranium for the Impulse Driver Coils, and Beryllium and Titanium for the Impulse Manifold. Once you've combined all those for the componants, you can then create the Impulse Engine. More advanced Impulse Engines (higher quality) require more materials, and better Impulse Engines (Hyper, Combat, Efficient) require more components (additional Driver Coils, for instance).

Now, this does add to the grind, but seeing as how there will be fewer Anomalies, and Doff system integration (and all the materials should be tradeable/sell-able/unbound) it will still work to complicate the system and discourage the mass-production of items because now the materiels will be more numerous and varied and the process of crafting itself will have a few more steps thrown in.

I'm not envisioning a time-factor in crafting, but if it took 30 minutes to an hour to craft each component, and 1-2 hours to assemble the final product, I wouldn't see it as such a bad thing so long as you could craft multiple objects at once (say, five end-products at a time, and up to 12 components at a time).

Now, here's what makes the penny-pinchers at PW happy: A Dilithium store. If you don't have the materials or EC to buy them, you can skip that step and buy the fully-completed components from a Vendor at Memory Alpha/Qonos, for Dilithium. The thing is, the Vendor prices the Components individually at such a price that buying the gear direct from a Dilithium Vendor on ESD/Qonos is cheaper than buying the ready-made components and assembling it.

Crafters can craft, even for fleets, grinders can grind and craft, and those uninterested in Crafting at all get better deals by grinding for the gear directly through the Dilithium stores on ESD/Qonos.

And, the people who don't want to grind Dilithium don't have to to craft. But the people who want to craft as quickly as possible still have the Dlithium-C-Store cash-railroad PW wants so much. And Crafting will finally make IP-sense in how it works.

Throw in some C-Store shortcuts (crafting slots, random bags of mats/componants, shortcut devices that half or eliminate the time-delay associated with crafting) and PW gets what they want, Players get what they want, Fleet Crafting still exists, and the Crafting system is improved and made more interesting to boot.

It's a win-win-win!
wow, this is the number one best darn idea i have ever heard in the face of this game or even other MMO's for that matter. i personally love the idea, and agree wholesomely on it! the thinking on this matter was great. i would love to see this system integrated and crafting changed. it would fit the lore nearly 100%.

now hwo do we suggest this to the game designers so they can try to get it to work? or even consider it
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 517
10-23-2011, 09:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmera
wow, this is the number one best darn idea i have ever heard in the face of this game or even other MMO's for that matter. i personally love the idea, and agree wholesomely on it! the thinking on this matter was great. i would love to see this system integrated and crafting changed. it would fit the lore nearly 100%.

now hwo do we suggest this to the game designers so they can try to get it to work? or even consider it
Coming from you Palmera, that is high praise indeed. (Not being sarcastic, really, thank you!)

I'm not sure of the cross-posting rules since they've gone back to the Cryptic Forum Usage Guidelines, the closest thing I can find is under Spamming, and it says the following is an example of Spam:

Quote:
Creating Duplicate Threads (A Duplicate Thread is defined as a thread which discusses the same topic as another thread, which has had a new post within the last 30 days.)
Seeing as how this thread is in response to the Path to F2P Dev Blog, and there's several threads in STO Discussion about the crafting changes (one of which I linked as my inspiration for this idea) I could probably get away with posting a new Thread to the Tribble Feedback forum pitching it, but it would likely get little traffic since the Dilithium-Crafting fiasco..

Maybe General Feedback?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 518
10-23-2011, 10:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
They want to change crafting? My solution was posted in another thread, and I don't want to violate Forum rules by directly quoting myself, so I'll just give you the basics. Just so you know, this was inspired by posts here by Jack_Armstrong and Leviathan99[/b]
While I'd love to take credit for the component crafting idea, it was actually Alexraptor that suggested it.

I love the idea that you put forth by combining both Alex's component crafting and Leviathan's Dilithium shop for parts (anomalies/particle traces/etc). Like you said, it's a win-win all around. Now, if they'll just listen to our ideas and meet us in the middle-ground we're proposing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 519
10-23-2011, 10:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heezdedjim
If Heretic was a lousy developer, I'd agree with you, but as it is, he's doing far too much good work to merit a promotion. This is the curse of competence; never making it to "management" because you're too good at getting actual important work done.
Actually, I've been both a systems lead and a lead designer on other projects here at Cryptic and elsewhere, but those were on projects I had been on from the beginning. When I came on STO, I knew squat about the way the team had set things up, so wasn't in a position to be a lead - I like to know what I am doing before I start offering direction.

In fairness, while I do communicate a lot, it is an enormous effort to do both that and the rest of my job. I do, however, appreciate people's kind words.

The truth is, the game is undergoing a period of massive change, and even in the best of circumstances that will leave people uneasy and sensitive. There are a lot of factors going into the decisions being made, and a lot of very hard decisions being made to accommodate an array of requirements and ramifications. People are - quite understandably - upset about a lot of the changes.

There's no denying this beta has been pretty bloody, but the team really is trying its best to navigate through extremely complicated waters. It isn't always going to succeed on the first (or second) try, but that's why we have made this beta as long as we have, so we can give ourselves the best chance possible to arrive at at least tolerable solutions for all involved.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 520
10-23-2011, 10:30 PM
I think STO is moving in a positive direction, and I appreciate that you, Heretic, and all the other devs are putting a lot of hard work and long hours into it. The naysayers may be in the spotlight now, but once everything settles months from now, what we'll have left is players happily playing a better game than the one we have now.
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