Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 201
11-03-2011, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
I've held my tongue up until now about your damage analysis up until now. Because your data analysis to present could yield data that has some semblance to reality, and I grudging will yield that the C-Store data may have some semblance to reality as well.

But now with the Dilthium Exchange any data that you gather will be so badly skewed that it will be useless. IT will be useless as to what player will go on the live game because there are no consequences to players actions. The Tribble C-Points (T-Points) are phony money. It has little, or no, value to players. Any value placed on the T-Points will have no bearing as how player will value in reality. You can feasibly use this data as a baseline.

And price fixing the exchange rate without even having a baseline? Insanity.

Note: So their is no misundetsanding. 'You' used in post meant to be a collective you as in 'you == Cryptic'.
Well that's part of the reason why dil sinks are there, to get testers to use the system as if it were live. The analysis is still valid to answering the question about how to balance grinding for dil (i.e. doing STFs) vice injecting cpoints to obtain dil for the various dil sinks. In fact, with the exchange, the cycle becomes complete - previously it was impossible to test real dil grinding-in-lieu-of-money because there was no previous way to convert accumulated dil (yes some of us VA STF runners who didn't even import holo characters are sitting on boatloads of [at least unrefined] dil) into Cpoints. Now there is. The exchange price fixing does have a sound basis in theory when you consider that the maximum rate of usable dil is 8000 dil per day *but* at VA it is so easy to generate that, not having a lower cap on the exchange would quickly devaluate CPs. It does make sense as a baseline to calculate the average length it takes to grind 500 emblems on holo for a T5 ship and use that as your desired exchange ratio for 1200CP. Who came up with the concept that 480dil = 1 emblem ratio? Cryptic didn't, since the theoretical max emblems one can reasonably obtain per day is around 15 (VA b'tran resets every 30minutes and you convert the VA badges to emblems); not to mention that on tribble, exploration nets you 1440dil per day. But in any case, see also
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 202
11-03-2011, 02:00 PM
Um. This seems silly to me.

1. Cryptic points are account wide.
2. Dilithium and Cryptic points can now be exchanged.

The meaning of this is simple.. even without the "wonky canceling" you can move dilithium from one character to another.

Step1. Sell your dilithium on the account you are transferring from for cpoints
Step2. Buy the dilithium on the account you are transferring to, with the cpoints.

You take a risk based on price fluctuation and will probably take a small loss, or make a small gain but the transfer is complete.

It's a simple rule really..... you cannot have a restricted currency freely exchangeable for an unrestricted currency and keep the restrictions effective.

Because of this you really have 3 options:
1. Do not allow exchanging for the unrestricted currency.
2. Add the restrictions to the unrestricted currency.
3. Remove the restrictions from the restricted currency.

Option 1 is shutdown the exchange. That would be highly dissapointing and defeat the purpose for which it was proposed.

Option 2. If the currency we are trading for becomes "restricted" it will be far less valuable. Meaning cpoints i can only use on one character? The incentive for buying these will be far less. Also how will that work with points that are "account wide" and purchases that are also account wide. This would likely be very difficult to sort out and make a lot of people very angry along the lines of "What do you mean i cant use the points i bought on the character i want" type angry. I would highly advise against it.

Option 3. This is the default option by the way.. If you do nothing you effectively remove the restrictions. For the sake of simplicity and avoiding the Kludgey way of having to cancle and such to do the transfer i would instead suggest making it easier to transfer.

The benefits of option 3 is that there will now be pressure on more people to level up characters and play them more. More characters = more dilithium... but also = more cost and market for them. People will be encouraged to play thier "alts" and then want to equip them well.. then want to make sure they get thier alts dailies done....thus want better equipment to do it faster/better/ more fun/ more players... bigger economy.

Economically you don't really have a choice. You cant really have an exchange, and a character restricted currency. BUT... you don't really need OR WANT one. You want to encourage people to use their mains to spend that dilithium equipping thier alts.

My suggestion is this... ENCOURAGE alts. They will be your salvation. Instead of making transferring more difficult.. make it less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 203
11-03-2011, 03:25 PM
Here is the math relevant to "Supply/Demand" Equation in the Dilithium Exchange. (Emblems are addressed at the bottom of this post)

REMEMBER its a 2 way street. The "Silvers" will be hungry for your C-points too. "Golds" will be able to earn a lot more Dilithium this way (its also why its better to not have artificial caps imposed on the exchange rate)

Its neither good or bad, it just "is" and as a "ray of light" for the current player base,the potential for your 400 point Stipened to buy 480,000 dilithium/month is pretty high if not inevitable due to the number of Silvers who will want C-points for "free" and who will be competing with eachother for your stipened..

As C-points are Account Wide, your dilithium earning potential is also account wide.
  • 400 Cryptic Points/Month per gold account
  • 720,000 dilithium/month "Earning potential" for Gold accounts (with only 3 slots)
  • 480,000 dilithium/month "Earning potential" for F2P (with 2 slots)

Market competition means people looking to buy C-points are competing with everone else who also wants to buy those points... if you are competing with a Silver to buy points The math becomes :-

720,000+480,000 Dil / 400 CP = 3000 Dilithium per C-point

This is assuming 1 silver per gold , i think its likely to be 4 silvers per gold, so, if anything, the price/c-point is likely to go higher NOT lower

Not everyone will earn their max dilithium, but your hardcore F2Pers who dont want to spend a cent on the game WILL DO .

Hardocre Silver account F2P/ers will have "purchasing power" of 1200 dilithium per C-point, per month if they want their C-store goodies for free.

Of course people can buy in more c-points too, but only have reason to buy a limited amount,the above math speaks for itself (and also shows why dilithium/c-point prices will rise). Its a GOOD thing for gold members for this to happen. (480k/month dilithium without any grinding at all isnt a bad thing)

Onto Emblems... which really is a topic for a diff forum topic and NOT so relevant to this one.

Emblems represnt time spent, if "Time spent" per dilithium is too high you CANNOT rectify that with the Dilithium Exchange, you rectify that by adding Dilithium ORE rewards to more things (which i sincerely hope they do)

The above is exactly why Cryptic needs "Market determined" pricing in order to keep the economy moving *long term", it is also why, even "optimistically" C-point pricing will go beyond the 600 Dil/CP mark in the long term
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 204
11-03-2011, 03:53 PM
Originally Posted by Cowbert View Post
The exchange price fixing does have a sound basis in theory when you consider that the maximum rate of usable dil is 8000 dil per day *but* at VA it is so easy to generate that, not having a lower cap on the exchange would quickly devaluate CPs. *snip*
Remember C-points are per account and you can earn Dilithium with one toon and use the C-points on any as they are account wide, so "earning potential" for the dilithium exchange is account wide, not per character.

For the purposes of the exchange, The rate of usable dilithium is 24,000 per day per Gold account at minimum and 16,000 dilithium per day for per silver account

Veterans of course are more likely to have more slots unlocked and thus more earning potential.

Price capping the exchange DEVALUES the c-point , which is a very bad thing for cryptic AND current subscribers who will be getting a stipened.

In short, the more dilithium c-points buy , the higher the "in-game" value becomes for the 400 point stipened.

Cryptic has all the control they need with this...the 8000/per toon/per day cap is the only thing they need to control this equation (of course they will only LOWER the refine cap, not raise it if they want to "increase" the value of dilithium)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 205
11-03-2011, 05:42 PM
will u eventually convert the 250 emblem veteran reward to ?????dilithiun when the patch goes live?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 206
11-03-2011, 06:47 PM
Gets less and less Star Trek by the day..... i need to get back in and test and see more, just ran out of energy lol
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 207
11-04-2011, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by Specter2
will u eventually convert the 250 emblem veteran reward to ?????dilithiun when the patch goes live?
*Shakes Magic 8-Ball*
"Not So Good"

What Cryptic says in the past doesn't hold water in the Future.

Neat to see the week late patch finally......better late than nev...wait never mind......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 208
11-04-2011, 08:03 AM
ummm.. I cannot help but notice that everyone here is missing something VERY important..

we know what your going to spend C-points on.. SHips, costumes, stuff like that.

But what is it your actually going to spend dilithium on?
Ships? Weapons?.. And there is still the energy credit economy or has everyone forgotten about that?
F2P types can either go buy CPoints and exchange them for ships viaa the dilithium exchange, or they can take thier C-points and buy ships. They should have a ship token purchase option in there for standard ships by the way . The normal C-store ships are better then the stock ships and have all those nifty consoles

ahh but getting those ship equipped.. well lets see, you can grind and craft. If you hit level cap you can STF and skip the whole silly mess. if you dont haave an entire set of ships weapons after 100 STF runs you'r really one unlucky sod! Stay away from Vegas and do not buy lotto tickets!

Call me jaded, but most f2P customers are going to realize full well that cryptic wants them to spend money on micro transactions and a lot of them are going to be realy resistant to the idea. The game is enjoyable with out having to spend money in micro transactions for fluff goodies. Its a two edged axe out of nessesity. They are quite capable of advancing in the game without ever spending a dime! All they have to do is be patient. Other MMO's that have subscription aaand f2P have placed limitations on free accounts with the most effective being "time" only so much play time per day per free account. Suddenly the micro tranactions and soemting like an in game gold store become significantly more viable. It allows the F2P player to litteraly buy "time"

And so far with what I am seeing, having the currently low refining limit for free accounts is fine, but its criplling to the paid accounts. If I could transfer refined dilithium and ore and for that matter e-creds and anything else between my characers it would be a different matter. the more characters you have the more dilithium you can refine. You can use the exchange to move refined dilithium between chracters but dilithium ore cannot be transfered.

As a LTM I could give really a flying hoot about the games economic model. Its beeing transformed into a way for Cryptic to make additional money. I hope it works. There are dozens of ways to siphon F2p customers money and one of em is bound to work. AS for we who are allready here. I expect nothing from the F2P model, and the economic changes are just going to get in the way of play. If all this energy being spend on the f2p release and economy were being spent on content maybe the KDF would be a whole faction by now, which would generate subscriptions.

Crrypic isn't is NOT getting any more money from me in any form untill i see content.. a lot of content.. a lot of KDF content. Untlll then this is all just another excuse to not do content. Just like all the other excuses.

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