Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Torpedo Spread Damage analysis
11-02-2011, 07:25 PM
Torpedo Spread Damage analysis


There have been some reports that torpedo spread is doing massive damage and is OP. I took a look at the data and ran some test. This is what I found.

I verified all the data, and it all looked accurate, but data doesn’t always tell the whole story, so I tested a few torpedoes. I only fully tested a Mark X Common Photon and partially tested a Mark X Common Quantun. Here are my findings (note all damage values are approximate since damage varies, and all the below values do not include any critical hits):

Photon:
Basic = 3345
Salvo 1 (2 hits)= 3788, 3929 = 7719
Salvo 2 (3 hits) = 3191, 2804, 3026 = 9021
Salvo 3 (4 hits) = 2726, 2685, 2527, 2906 = 10844
Spread 1 = 6089 per target
Spread 2 = 7643 per target
Spread 3 = 8819 per target

Quantum:
Basic = 3802
Salvo 3 (4 hits) = 2820, 2755, 3041, 2737 = 11353
Spread 3 = 9462 per target

I cannot repro any anomalies, bugs or balance discrepancies reported about Torpedo Spread. Spread is foing what it was designed to do, and it does less damage than its comperable Salvo power, but does it to multiple targets.

Note, Salvo has a 200 radius splash damage and Spread has a 300 radius splash damage (on each affected target, regardless of what the art looks like). So if you are a little close to your ally, you could get hit multiple times.
Note, Crits do not affect torpedoes (spreads or otherwise) more than any other attack. However, Salvo applies multiple hits, where Spread has one hit, and thus has a high spike damage potential if it Crits.

There are a lot of torpedoes out there, and I can't test them all. If there is some discrepancy I misses, please let me know with a specific repro case for me to track down. As it is now, Torpedo Spread does less damage than its equivalent Salvo - per target - as designed.

Options:
  • Do nothing. Everything is fine.
  • Someone finds a broken torpedo out there, and we fix it.
  • Assuming nothing is broken, we can remove the splash damage from torpedoes.
  • We can reduce the splash radius of torpedoes.
  • We can make the splash damage taper with distance from the affected target.
  • We can make Spread damage a target like salvo. That is, instead of doing 10k damage, it could do 3.3k x3 (or something like that). This is time consuming to implement, but it would reduce the spikey damage from a critical hit.
Let us know what you think.


BTW, there is a bug in Torpedo Spread Max Number of Targets. All are currently set to 10 (except the Tricobalt). They should all be set to 3, 4, and 5 targets for Spread I, II, and III respectively (Tricobalt is correctly set at 2,3 and 4 targets). This will be corrected shortly, and perhaps
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-02-2011, 07:33 PM
So the 36k minimum crits I get are just normal?

That makes a lot of sense!

Ok here's how it usually works, or at least how I think it works(not an expert contact BigRedJedi for that):

Strip their shields fire it against MORE than one target and all the crits add up for each target and you end up with tricobalt style(or better crits).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-02-2011, 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
I cannot repro any anomalies, bugs or balance discrepancies reported about Torpedo Spread. Spread is foing what it was designed to do, and it does less damage than its comperable Salvo power, but does it to multiple targets.
Hey Geko!

First up - the Dev presence deserves huge good karma to you. It does assure me (I'm not brave enough to say "Us") that things are happening behind the scenes.

Second...

I think the above is part of the problem - It does it to multiple targets. The power by itself is certainly potent, but it's a question of combined arms. For example, if I - as an Engineer - fire off a Red Matter Capacitor, EPS Power Transfer, Power to Weapons and Tactical team followed by Beam Fire at Will, I have the capacity to strip the shields of almost everything inside my killzone.

Now let's be evil and have my Science support hit them with a Gravity Well and Tykens Rift.

...I then follow up rapidly with Quantum Torpedo Spread 2, and every single one of those virtually shield-less targets is now hit for a truly grotesque amount of damage.

The power by itself is not all that bad, but there are some very powerful and potent combinations which this power in particular, makes absolute mince with.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-02-2011, 07:35 PM
I think the main reason it has been a problem is because if it does crit, it is the equivalent of all the hits critting, thus doing one, HUGE hit.

With Salvo, one of those hits could miss, or be absorbed by shields.

So I think that just making each hit an actual seperate hit would fix all the problems (in theory lol)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-02-2011, 07:45 PM
I personally can't speak much for the PVP side of things, though I have to say a major contributor is definitely that when it crits, it CRITS. The damage is like around 3/4 torpedoes in HY3 critting, but immensely more likely. Let's say you have a 10% crit rate. You have a 10% chance to get a huge spread hit, but HY3 only has a 0.1% chance of having 3 or more crits, causing similar total damage. So things that are extreme outliers with salvo (namely damage in the one-shot range) are reasonably common with spread.


However, I'm still quite concerned about the PVE side of torpedo spread. It's always seemed the case that PVE enemies have unusually strong torpedoes to make up for their stupidity in getting them through the right spots in player shields, and spread does some really ridiculous things for them. I've seen hits in excess of 100k from B'ger and tactical cubes, including ones that were lethal through polarize hull and brace for impact in a cruiser with partial shields still up, and the reasons most people have said the elite STFs aren't fun come down to torpedo spread splatter death.

And that side very often involves raw hits doing lethal damage, not crits, so splitting it into three hits wouldn't solve things the way it might in PVP - the three hits would still be just as lethal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-02-2011, 07:51 PM
Ever since the torp spreads were boosted, I've thought they were a bit over powered. To make this worse, Cryptic goes and nerfs the TriC's to basically just makeall torps basically generic all but their visuals.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-02-2011, 07:54 PM
I think its the problems with Crits.

If people consistently get 60>K torpedo Crits and High Yield Torpedo gives you 20K Crit if your lucky, with 1 torpedo. (... Tricobalts are the ones which did 50/60K crits average and they have a severe penalty by being able to be shot down)

Its clearly notable that people using Spread achieve way higher Damage Statistics on the Scoreboard, meaning they do way more hull damage. NOT against Pets, because only player hull damage is shown on the scoreboard.

Its the same as we've observed when FAW was overpowered.


Essentially, this new Spread not only clutters the whole screen but is also TOO powerful. My escort has been shot from 100 to 10% with a Spread II (Not even rank III) because ONE of my shield facings was down. And the guy didnt even shot at the down shield facing it was in fact from the opposite side.


Now tell us that THAT is not broken. You're right, the normal non crit shots are all OK
Dont take this as a mad post, I'm not mad. Im just trying to be clear about it.

And we all appreciate you guys analyzing and possible fixing the issue behind it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-02-2011, 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
  • We can make Spread damage a target like salvo. That is, instead of doing 10k damage, it could do 3.3k x3 (or something like that). This is time consuming to implement, but it would reduce the spikey damage from a critical hit.
THIS is EXACTLY what needs to be done to spread. We all agree that ON AVERAGE, Spread does in fact do ~80% of High Yield's damage. The problem is that critical hits can become MASSIVE (100k+ from players, 300k+ from NPCs) because the damage is calculated in one giant hit, often instapopping targets through full shields.

This, in combination with the reduction in max number of targets that is going live tomorrow will IMO, make Spread completely balanced vs. High Yield.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-02-2011, 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceroid View Post
THIS is EXACTLY what needs to be done to spread. We all agree that ON AVERAGE, Spread does in fact do ~80% of High Yield's damage. The problem is that critical hits can become MASSIVE (100k+ from players, 300k+ from NPCs) because the damage is calculated in one giant hit, often instapopping targets through full shields.

This, in combination with the reduction in max number of targets that is going live tomorrow will IMO, make Spread completely balanced vs. High Yield.
I 100% concur with Iceroid.

^this is the most constructive suggestion one can possibly make

But let other users decide what they want;

at this current moment its both cluttering the screen, creating huge critcal hits, and since its spread, it doesnt seem to require any more tactic but to strip someones shield and fire your spread. In that casw 80% damage of HYT isnt even balanced in my oppinion. Since HYT depends totally on whether the shield facing is down when you shoot your torpedo.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-02-2011, 08:01 PM
i appreciate you doing testing yourself, maybe if you also posted this in the pvp forums section you might get some pvp'ers to give their numbers and whatnot?
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