Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
11-05-2011, 11:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destinii
Well, once we hashed things out, I think we discovered we didn't *completely* disagree before.. just had differences in opinions on a few things. ^_^

But yeah, there most certainly will be revamps. I'm saving the respecs I have (5 on one character, 4 on another) for when the sweeping changes come in, because I'm not going to be spending any of my free stipend on respecs, and *certainly* not real cash.
I sure as heck won't be buying an respec tokens at all even with the stipeneds I get. I still have 5 on my only character and will probably never use them. I hope somebody can sit down and do the math for all this to make a decent build. Hate to say it, it won't be me. I don't have the time to do it. Lets hope that Cryptic changes this sick joke of a system, doubt it though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
11-05-2011, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ally_of_the_Force View Post
I sure as heck won't be buying an respec tokens at all even with the stipeneds I get. I still have 5 on my only character and will probably never use them. I hope somebody can sit down and do the math for all this to make a decent build. Hate to say it, it won't be me. I don't have the time to do it. Lets hope that Cryptic changes this sick joke of a system, doubt it though.
It'll change by default.

May not change to what you (we) want, but it will change.

May even get worse. Who knows.

We just have to wait and see.

I had my character build pre-planned on tribble, so I haven't even used 1 skill respec. I will likely be changing builds every time they revamp just to see first-hand what's different.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
11-05-2011, 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ally_of_the_Force View Post
I sure as heck won't be buying an respec tokens at all even with the stipeneds I get. I still have 5 on my only character and will probably never use them. I hope somebody can sit down and do the math for all this to make a decent build. Hate to say it, it won't be me. I don't have the time to do it. Lets hope that Cryptic changes this sick joke of a system, doubt it though.
I might be one of the few, but I like where the skill system is heading now. It needs to have the rough edges smoothed out (or in some places a plank or two replaced), but its looking like it could shape up very well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
11-05-2011, 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBuzzard
agreed to a point. It seems that some of this has saverly affected the use of consoles as well. I that is the case then that means BO skills or buffs are in the tank as well.

IMHO a lot of this my simply be attached to an over reaction from Cryptic to "slow down" the game. I'm not sure how bad that affects PvP ... but it can't be good !
I disagree.
It seems they have merely lower the level of ferocity of combat and the corresponding equipment as well.

Those that where good at PvP will still be good at pvP. Those that where not may have a slight buffing now but nothing that will not go away as the system is more explored and players get used to how it works.

Though the shock of this change is a bit unsettling at times.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
11-05-2011, 11:20 AM
I'm still trying to wrap my head around this new skill system. What I will say is that my sci/sci main on Holodeck can't even get close to the old spec.

On Holodeck I had Sensor Array, Sensor Probes, Hazard Systems, and Deflector field maxed out. This let me used Scramble Sensors, Viral Matrix, Hazard Emitters, Polarize Hull, Feedback Pulse, Transfer Shield Strength, Subsystem Targetting, and Stealth detection as high as I could get them. The rest of my points went into tactical and engineering sections to get power, weapons, and the like from the efficiency, performance, and attack pattern skills, and a few others.

I also had a smattering of ground skills. Not much, but a few ranks here and there.

Now I can't even come close to that setup. To do what I used to do, I need Subspace Decompiler, Countermeasure Systems, Particle Generators, Flow Capacitors, and Sensors. But to get all those, I would have no choice but to dump performance skills and have less overall power.

And I now have nothing but tier 1 ground skills. I can't possibly afford anything else without sacrifices to ship performance I didn't have to make before.

Worse, the investment into these skills is of questionable value at best. Speccing completely into Subspace Decompiler, my Viral Matrix 3 went from 8s to 10s. Do I need to explain why that is not remotely worth 6750 skill points?

Now to be fair, were I to spec into those skills, I would end up being able to use a few more powers more effectively, in fact pretty much all of them. Problem is I don't want to use them all. I want to specialize so I can set up my ship equipment effectively, so I can get more in other areas.


Tradeoffs, right? Problem is, if I have to sacrifice power for science skills, I have no reason to be switching ship types. I've made a massive investment into the science tree, and thus I'm pretty well stuck in science ships, because all those science powers I'm good with have no place on any other ship. This is the exact same problem with the science tree under the old system. I get no benefit from being trained in those skills if I'm not using them.

This of course is to say nothing of the fact that most science powers do not really help you kill things if you sacrifice weapon performance for science performance. They are wholly underperforming compared to straight weapon damage in PVE. In PVP, they have more place, but someone still has to be doing pew pew to actually kill something.


The console situation is just bad. The new values are pathetically low, and in fact so low that equipping these consoles has no noticeable effect for many powers, and on others they are incredibly underwhelming.

Examples: Equipping a green mk XI emitter array (+5.4 shield emitter) console increases my transfer shield strength 3 from 1405 each facing and 400 regeneration to 1490 and 425 at 68 aux, and has no effect on the damage resistance. That amounts to a total 460 more shield regeneration per facing. That's at best one shot from a single weapon. Compare that to a Neutronium Armor console with +15 to all resists. Keep in mind this is a middle of the road scenario. Escorts and cruisers won't have TSS 3, nor 68 aux power in most cases.

A green mk XI sensor probe console ups my stealth detection rating from 184.58 to 190.67 at 124 aux. If I hit sensor scan 3, sci captain power, that jumps to 712.

There is also no Subspace decompiler console as I've found out. This means my pathetic Viral Matrix 3 can't even be improved anymore. It is 8s with no skill investment 10s with full skill investment.

Compare again a 26% increase to weapon damage versus a console that gives +5.8 to Particle Generators. Does that amount to a 26% damage increase for gravity well? Not even close. Grav Well 1 at 124 Aux gives me 724 DPS, a particle generator console puts it to 775. That is 7%. And of course it goes without saying that gravity well is on cooldown far more than a ship's weapons.


There is so much wrong with the skill system itself too. Having some powers affected by 3 different skills is going to be incredibly confusing. The old system was far easier to comprehend. If you want to improve a power, you improved all aspects at once with the same skills. Now you have to figure out what is worth improving and what isn't.

If I want to improve Charged Particle burst, what do I want? Well the only thing worth speccing for is the damage. So to do that you want particle generators. Oh but you can't train CPB 3 without Subspace Decompilers. The cloak disable is not worth speccing for, period, yet you have to have someone train it for you, which means they wasted their skill points for Subspace Decompilers, which isn't worth speccing into at all.



And to touch again on the problem with science powers, they have no passives, only active effects, which have massive cooldowns. This is a serious problem because it forces you into a science ship or those points are a waste in any other ship.

There is no compelling reason for an escort to spec into Sensors, Particle Generators, Subspace Decompilers, or Countermeasure Systems, to name a few. None. If you want to fly an escort, don't waste points there, because you get nothing out of it. And if you are a science ship you also get nothing out of those unless you use the relevant powers associated with those skills.


So a summary. It is more expensive to spec into old builds that have less performance now than they used to. Some builds are totally impossible to recreate in the new system. Science consoles are incredibly underwhelming; to use RPG parlance, they are a dump stat, including for science ships. Active science skills still don't have passives, while the whole system is full of passive effects!


Fixing this is going to take some extra thought. However my initial suggestion is to unnerf science consoles, returning them to their current Holodeck values.

Additionally, science skills need completely redone. Use no more than one skill per power, and if you have a counter skill, roll it into the very same skill that affects the offending power.

For example whatever skill is used to improve tractor beams should also provide resistance to them. Why is that? Because it provides a valuable secondary passive to a skill that otherwise has no value to anyone that doesn't use tractor beams. It is a simple principle, if you want to learn how to counter something, you need to learn how it works first.

If each skill explicitly improves one or two powers, then where is the possible confusion? Additionally if each skill is its own resistance, it gives everyone a compelling reason to spec into or not into said skill, not just science ships, and sensibly makes science ships who have a wide selection of science skills better off for their sacrifices in other areas, especially if they switch ship types.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
11-05-2011, 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakaishin
It'll change by default.

May not change to what you (we) want, but it will change.

May even get worse. Who knows.

We just have to wait and see.

I had my character build pre-planned on tribble, so I haven't even used 1 skill respec. I will likely be changing builds every time they revamp just to see first-hand what's different.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destinii
I might be one of the few, but I like where the skill system is heading now. It needs to have the rough edges smoothed out (or in some places a plank or two replaced), but its looking like it could shape up very well.
I'm not saying they don't have the right idea about the change. But they're going about it the wrong way. I like that the system is simplified a bit more. But stuff costs too much. The fact that we've had no real response to any of the changes that are possibly coming, just not finalized, is beyond frustrating.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
11-05-2011, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ally_of_the_Force View Post
I'm not saying they don't have the right idea about the change. But they're going about it the wrong way. I like that the system is simplified a bit more. But stuff costs too much. The fact that we've had no real response to any of the changes that are possibly coming, just not finalized, is beyond frustrating.
I don't like it any more than you do.

But instead of just saying, "Cryptic, you're dumb", post what your fixes would be.

You started with raising the number of skill points with the new system. That's a start.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
11-05-2011, 12:18 PM
I'm actually going to change my tune on this one.

I just copied a KDF Sci/Carrier toon from Holodeck to Tribble. It was intended to be a big debuff boat and general support ship (moderate damage, healing, etc.). It was one of my more convoluted builds in trying to cover several bases, so I was quite worried about how this new skill system would work. Before the transfer I wrote down everything about my build so I could compare.

All in all, it worked out quite nicely. Some things took a hit (most notably, Accuracy, Crit Chance, Crit Severity; my Hazard Emitters also lost some healing and damage resist power). However, several other things got a bump that make up for this (my base DPS is higher, other heals actually heal more, my defensive capabilities went up a bit). My power levels either stayed the same or increased a bit. I have a good amount of points in ground stuff as well (sorry, I don't have time to write up my skill allocations at the moment).

Things that bother me:

Science skills: You have to dump way too many points into them to get a good effect, and ultimately, the max effects from skills were decreased a bit. Something needs to be done about this.

Captain Career: Skills no longer affect Captain abilities. THIS BITES. Captain abilities need to receive some sort of buff to compensate, especially now that everything basically has a passive countermeasure to it. What I'd actually like to see is your career mattering MORE. For example, you career gives you a bonus, based on your rank, to all skills related to your career (so, Sci captains would get an inherent bonus to all Sci skills; Tacs would get Tac skills, Engys would get Eng skills). That would make up for some of the nerf effects as well as allow players to de-emphasize spending points in some areas to put into other areas.

Skill costs: We have to put points into a lot more skills, but skills cost more to buy. The cost of skilling something could be reduced a bit. Alternatively, the effects of skilling could be increased a bit, which would allow players to spread their skill points around more. Or, if you want to relate it to the above, captains get a break in skilling something that is tied to their career.

Consoles: Yeah. What the heck is up with this? Console bonuses really need to be improved (unless the effects of skilling are increased, as mentioned above).

All in all, though, I think this is a good start. I think there's a bit of frustration in having to learn the new system and wanting things to equate exactly from the old system to the new system. Once the shock wears off and we learn how to skill effectively, I'm betting most people's attitudes will improve a bit, assuming that our feedback is heard and we get some of the tweaks we're looking for.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
11-05-2011, 12:39 PM
Yeah, this new system is not killing me. No pieces of sky have fallen on me yet, though it is both incomplete and has bugs that need fixing before its releasable, imo.
Both My Tac/tac and Sci/sci seem fine (if not a little weaker in CC defense) than my Holodeck toons.

Lower the Tier caps so points can be spread a little easier.

6000 - T1
18000- T2
34000 - T3
52000 - T4
75,600 - T5
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
11-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Yeah, this new system is not killing me. No pieces of sky have fallen on me yet, though it is both incomplete and has bugs that need fixing before its releasable, imo.
Both My Tac/tac and Sci/sci seem fine (if not a little weaker in CC defense) than my Holodeck toons.
My sci captain in her sci ship gained approx 2k hull and 600 shield points over the holodeck build, and that was with the shield HP increase skill only at 6, not 8. (the hull HP boost skill was at 8.)
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