Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 221
11-08-2011, 12:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Troll = Any person who makes responses (positive or negative) designed to illicit an emotional response. There can be anti-change trolls and pro-change trolls, just because someone has a gripe doesn't make them a troll, as there can be legitimate criticisms, nobody ever gets it right 100% of the time.

There can be opinions and conclusions garnered from facts gathered from things other than personal experience. Whether or not a person logs in and tests out changes personally doesn't change that they have the right to present their opinion, provided it be done in a respectful manner.
Like any troll there is the final solution of putting that person on ignore. I figured they had carried this on way too long. If they don't like that I don't like the proposed changes and am thinking of playing something else instead thats fine but no one has any right to dictate any ones opinions like you were saying I try to be respectful but these kids these days do not make it easy.

Anyways some of my 2 cents on what Geko was saying:

I think for testing purposes we should have unlimited respec abilities so that we can play around with it to see what works best for how we play. Also to get adjusted to the new variables you spoke of as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 222
11-08-2011, 02:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
you donít need to put 9 points in every skill you want.
You Sir are aware that you just created HELL for any Min/Maxer out there?



anyway... i would ask for a visual revamp of the skilltree
just taking a look at Google... STO is sub standard in this section


With a UI revamp you could actually gate the single skills through the levels...
say Energy Weapons are unlocked at what... level 10?
how about instead of unlocking the different boxes at rankup, you unlock the level we can upgrade a certain skill with the rank ups.

think like this: at every rank up you are allowed to put 2 more points into Energy Weapons and Torps.
Instead of 9 at rank 10 and then again 9 at rank 50 or whatever it is.

This would give a steady increase in power over time instead of... putting 9 points in there at one point and getting a 200% increase by clicking once.

I think this could be a bit more gated.

You could even throw a few special one point Procs between the big 9ers.



And for gods sake man! Display the NUMBERS before and after of the affacted abilities!
I want to see how much energy i actually gain from putting in one point... or if i need 2 or 3 to get my weapons power up to where i want it... sometimes it doesn't move at all.

I want to know how much more dps my energy weapons do, how much resistance to knackbacks do i actually get out of that skill.... etc. etc.

Numbers d00d! NUMBERS!


Or i will just pull out Excel and some Skill planner again...


...and if you say i can see them in the char / ship-stats windows... NO i can't because the skilltree is in the same damn window and i can not have both open at the same time, also i do not see what i get from putting a point in there, i only see the change AFTER i spend the point -> then it's to late to change my mind.


Conclusion: i still don't know what i'm exactly doing when i press a button.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 223
11-08-2011, 03:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
a great understanding.
ok than. i am going to say thank you for this. just cause you deserve explaining this to us.

how ever now that you had just completed the math, and noticed that you have either accidental nerffed us. are you going to make the same nerf to the enemy's aswell? every number counts my friend. even if it becomes a fraction of a lose to my power ability. if fact your 'nerf' where i once had a solid power conversion of 101 to my weapons, now makes it 92-98 means that slight fraction cut MY DPS down on a enemy.

so if either your change was directed at us, or it was a opps change cause you wanted to change the tree and didnt mean to nerf everything. if your didnt change the figures of what we are attacking. than that is making them stronger by those fractions, and soon those fractions will add up.

what im trying to say is, now you see your flaw after we pointed it out, (or you knew about it, or figured it out when you did the math here rather before the change) and noticed the system has been nerfed, what are you going to do about it?

here some facts for you, i forget the persons name. but they did this to World of ******** about 4-5 yrs back, went and did nerfs to the tree, the producer would not allow the tree to really be harmed persay. but people noticed what he did, and they spread the word, and close to 1000 people quit til it was ratified. i dont have to tell you what happened to the person that ****ed people off with a unnecessary nerf of the game do i? he was fired 2 weeks later for a lack of a better word, '*******' by blizzard.

you see if you dont need to nerf something dont. we may not end up paying for this soon, but mr. geko, it doesnt mean you have to nerf a system that was working well. i dont fear change, i welcome it. but if change appears harm, or damage, or puts a 'buff' on curtain aspects. than im going to complain with everyone else, and expect you to listen and expect a change that will correct it. be happy cryptic isnt blizzard thou. the americans have no problem firing people for not listening. cryptic doesnt seem to do enough of it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 224
11-08-2011, 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Troll = Any person who makes responses (positive or negative) designed to illicit an emotional response. There can be anti-change trolls and pro-change trolls, just because someone has a gripe doesn't make them a troll, as there can be legitimate criticisms, nobody ever gets it right 100% of the time.

There can be opinions and conclusions garnered from facts gathered from things other than personal experience. Whether or not a person logs in and tests out changes personally doesn't change that they have the right to present their opinion, provided it be done in a respectful manner.
this much i know katic. now may i direct you to all this other guys post, and you will get a understanding to why i said what i said, and why i was upset with him.

i could simply tell you its because every time he comes on the forum is to put down a dis-respective notion on this game, that has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and is nothing more than a negative commit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 225
11-08-2011, 03:25 AM
Here's a quick fact. I'm still not as effective with the new system even with putting zero points into ground. I don't need to run any math formulas to prove it either. I simply have to look at my abilities and notice they are much lower than that on holodeck. Hazard emitters lowered heal values, check. DPS lower, check. So I'm supposed to believe that lower numbers are better? Right, so excuse me when I say your explanation means nothing to me because the "numbers don't lie" as they say. Your formula must be off somehow, somewhere.

I just wish there was enough time to actually make/refine/ polish a new system instead of just throwing this out there because of time constraints. The players deserve better.


This is just another situation where it looks good on paper and in theory, but in practice, the new skill system isn't what you guys are advertising it to be.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 226
11-08-2011, 03:34 AM
How about addressing why Tac and Sci spend less to be able to max skills to train boffs than Engs do? There are double ups Sci and Tac, none for Eng.

Why are the 'Team' powers, a space ability, tied to ground skills still? Eng team has two better choices related to what the power does, Structural integrity, and Starship hull repair. Science team should be attached to what makes sense, Starship Shield Emitters, or Starship Shield Systems. Tac team I'm not sure about, but since it is shield related now so perhaps it should also be using one of those skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 227
11-08-2011, 06:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
One last thing. Some of you may feel that you can't attain the levels you used to. Although the system is different, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, for the most part, you actually can get more from this system than you used to.
-al
Al...

It seems to me I get maybe 0.2 less turnrate while having to invest more skillpoints into turnrate in my Galaxy X maxed turnrate build.

I suspect you'll find some people are turnrate junkies, despite being told it's notoptimal to minmax turnrate in a cruiser.

Now, it sure seems to me that the comparative cost of speccing into turnrate both via engine power and direct turnrate enhancement is up with less benefit for the relative cost.

I was kinda hoping survivability, maneuverability, and raw weapons gains would be more balanced here...

And one concern I do have is that while this tree may be simpler, a bad spec in the new tree may be more penalizing and detrimental to a player than a bad spec under the old system.

I'd be interested in trying to test the intentionally worst spec possible on Tribble versus the worst spec possible on Redshirt.

Thing is, I'd have to limit that to bad specs and not bad gearing: I did try running a ship with all transphasic torpedos on live (rationalizing that the shield pen might make up for the lower DPS if ALL of the weapons had shield pen, not thinking about the shared cooldown) and that actually already slows down some fights to last maybe ten minutes or longer, resulting in strange glitches where necessary named ships will disappear midfight without even taking damage from any source.

Especially with a massive influx of players, I do think it's important to do some balancing and tuning so that the worst spec and loadout a person can do is not absolutely painful.

Personally... I think the skill trees need either-or trees (think Shadow/Holy/Discipiline or Arms/Fury/Protection) and skills required as pre-reqs for other skills that lend themselves towards synergy, even if the imagined player spends every point badly. I'm also inclined to think that speccing into a weapon type could maybe enhance the effect of using nothing but that weapon by reducing the shared cooldown within a weapon energy type? I get that you want variety but I think it's a natural response for players to say, "I like quantum torpedos.I'll just put those in every slot." And without making that OPTIMAL, I think this does require some basic "childproofing" to avoid making it painful to play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 228
11-08-2011, 06:14 AM
Thank you for the reply. It is good to have some explanation as to why the numbers look so different.

Whereas before if I used the 'rule of seven' for 7-7-9 on a typical skill chain giving 17+ 28 + 52 for a total bonus of 97 to shave some skill points, now I would do 'rule of eight' giving 32 when x3 internally gives a total bonus of 96. This isn't bad for the skills that come in lower tiers as I get a similar bonus to before, but much earlier and at lower cost while leveling up.

Skills in the upper tiers however get no bonus at all until I can unlock the tier, where before they used to get a small bonus from lower tier skills. On balance this is probably OK as most of the more important sklls are in tier 1 and 2 - weapons, heals, hull and shields with the more specialized ones coming later. So if you can figure out what skills are important you can probably get close with the new system - and this is what I found for the most part.

But the skills are only part of the story. Gear is more problematic.

One problem that people may be having with the new skills is finding the gear that improves those skills. Old gear may not work the way you expect it to. For example it took me a while to realize why I had lost so much power on my Hazard Emitters skill. I quickly saw that my old Halon System console was not doing any good and that I would need a SIF console instead, but even with that change made and a better Aux level due to other skill picks my HE was still lower.

I finally figured out the the loss was due to changes in the Aegis deflector I was using. Previously it used to have +33 Emitters which was a good buff to HE, that has been changed to +16 Shield Emitters so it no longer affects HE. I can't see any way to get this back, but I might have missed something. On the other hand other deflector types are looking far more useful to my escort build now. Positron would buff both my hull and shields, though not Hull Repair, and is available with mods to improve it further.

[Bug] On inspecting the available consoles I realized there is a display issue, the innate mods use the x10 number system for skills (+16) while the mods seems to use the raw number (+0.81) - this is particularly a problem when a mod is trying to stack with an innate bonus but they are using different numbering.

[Bug] Also the gear on the STF vendors needs to have the names updated. It is using the old names for mods and the regular Deflector Array (now the Neutrino Deflector Array? - thanks for that BTW - makes exchange searching a lot easier). The stats seem to be the new ones, though with the same scaling issue as above.

Another area where there is a problem is tactical consoles. The old cannon/beam console have been changed to provide a generic bonus to energy weapons, and similarly for the old mine/torpedo consoles for projectile weapons. The problem is this is now less than the bonus provided by the energy specific consoles.

While a straight bonus to energy of the same level would make the energy specific ones redundant, could they not be restored to providing bonuses to cannons or beams only? Because as it is the +energy ones are obsolete, you are better off going for a single energy type build and using specific consoles.

A cynic might say that rendering old gear obsolete, or at less effective for certain builds, and requiring new gear to get back the same power levels is part of a scheme to encourage even established players into the dilithium market. While this may not be the intention of the changes, it is an effect and some players will be upset at being out of pocket to try get back what they once had.

Also the shift in some cases of the slot type to buff a skill is also an issue - using the engineering console SIF Generator to buff the science skill Hazard Emitters instead of the old science console Halon Systems is an example of this. While on my defiant refit I was able to accomodate this by moving the cloaking device from an engineering slot to a science slot, such tricks may not be possible on other builds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 229
11-08-2011, 06:21 AM
Thanks Geko. But your math still doesn't cover how, due to the skill tier setup, that I can be more effective with certain skills (gravity well and tractor beam for example) and yet be less effective with others (scramble sensors and viral matrix), due to their positioning on the skill tree. I understand that the numbers differ, but what criteria did you use to determine which skills would be easier and more cost effect to buff (because they were lower level tiers) and others less effective (for higher tier skills).

Basically while I appreciate your math, certain skills and builds are still much more cost effective, and your math does nothing to address this issue.

Also, your math doesn't explain why certain mk III skills are easier to come by and others harder to come by. Basically again playing favoritism to certain builds over others.

Also your math doesn't explain how I can be effective across multiple ship classes, due to the danger of over-hybridization and making myself a jack of all trades, master of none in order to get enough boosts to BO skills that can only be used in other class ship due to console set up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 230
11-08-2011, 06:38 AM
I put roughly 7-8 in each ability I KNOW I use on live.

I put roughly 5 in each ability here and was just as good (better) in some instances than live.


Overall a good change and I'm finding myself at least as effective if not more in a general sense than before.
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