Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 231
11-08-2011, 05:56 AM
The only real problem I have with the new system is the science consoles that completely switched functions (e.g. Halon).

Any plans to modify that, or allow us a one-time console swap?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 232
11-08-2011, 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3R0B4NG View Post
You Sir are aware that you just created HELL for any Min/Maxer out there?
Min/Maxers live in their own little special hell anyway.

My only real concern with this is...

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
Now it looks like you have to max 3 or 4 abilities to get the same bonus. That is not actually the case. Before, when you bought a Deflector skill, it did affect a lot of science powers, but only a little bit (as low as 18). What you can do now is purchase 3 points in, say, Flow Capacitors, Shield Emitters, and Graviton Generators, and get 20 in each of those.
Isn't this going to make it harder for me to continue training the same BO abilities I can train now? You still have to buy 9 points in a skill to do that, right? That's going to force major sacrifices elsewhere.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 233
11-08-2011, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurepastnow View Post


Isn't this going to make it harder for me to continue training the same BO abilities I can train now? You still have to buy 9 points in a skill to do that, right? That's going to force major sacrifices elsewhere.

Yes. Yes. and you're exactly right. However, we can't really avoid this when we butcher down the skill tree to only a few skills.

You can however grind dilithium to trade for c-points to buy a skill respec to change your skills if you want to train boffs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 234
11-08-2011, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
I wanted to take a moment to explain some of the math behind the skill system. I think there is some confusion on how it works and some things that may be altering perception of the new numbers.

In the old system (and the way ground still works), you could get 18 points from Tier 1, 30 from Tier 2, and 52 from Tier 3, 4 and 5. The idea is, if you owned all 3 skills that affect an ability, then you get a skill bonus of 100 towards that ability. Generally, it works something like this behind the scenes:

First, all skill bonuses are divided by 10. So a skill on 30 becomes 3. In reality, the skill bonus you are getting is actually 3, we just multiply the number in the UI by 10 to make it look cooler. Ok, so Let's say:

Skill_A Tier 1
Skill_B Tier 2
Skill_C Tier 3

Power_A:
Buff (Or damage, or whatever the power does): 10 x (1 + Skill_A + Skill_B + Skill_C)

So, Power_A does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_A would do 10 x (1 + .18 + .3 + .52) = 20.


Some abilities we tweaked to only use partial skills. For instance, a Confuse or Disable ability could not be doubled by having max skills. You might only get 50% benefit from your skills. An ability that only got 50% from skills might look like:

Power_B:
Debuff (say a control effect): 10 x (1 + 0.5 x (Skill_A + Skill_B + Skill_C))

So, Power_B does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_B would do 15.


Now that was the old system. In the new system, all Space skills give you up to 33. Most of you have noticed that all Console Mods, Deflectors and other items that grant skill bonuses have been reduced to 1/3 of their old value. This is not a nerf. You still get the same benefit from then that you used to. Here is why. The math on the abilities have changed to the following:


Power_A:
Buff (Or damage, or whatever the power does): 10 x (1 + 3 x (Skill_A))

So, Power_A does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_A would do 10 x (1 + 3 x .33) = 19.9. (ok, a 0.1 nerf, you caught me )


Alternately, for some Confuse or Disable abilities:

Power_B:
Debuff (say a control effect): 10 x (1 + 1.5 x (Skill_A))

So, Power_B does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_B would do 14.95.


So you only get one skill power to modify your abilities, and consoles numbers were reduced in magnitude, but you get 3 times the benefit from each of these. We had planned on changing the number on new space skills to be 99 or 100 per skill, but since ground skills were incomplete, it looked weird and confusing that ground skills were giving so much less than space skills. We did plan on updating all the numbers once ground skills were done. In hindsight, the current numbers may have just been too confusing. We will be working to update them in the coming weeks.

One last thing. Some of you may feel that you can't attain the levels you used to. Although the system is different, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, for the most part, you actually can get more from this system than you used to. The perception may be that you used to be able to, say purchase 9 points in a deflector skill, and buff a lot of my abilities. Now it looks like you have to max 3 or 4 abilities to get the same bonus. That is not actually the case. Before, when you bought a Deflector skill, it did affect a lot of science powers, but only a little bit (as low as 18). What you can do now is purchase 3 points in, say, Flow Capacitors, Shield Emitters, and Graviton Generators, and get 20 in each of those. Since your abilities take 3x the value from skills, thatís like getting 60 bonus that will affect 3 different types of abilities - far more than any single skill in the old system. And, yes, the skills cost 50% more, but there are half as many to purchase, which again is a net gain. What may be hard to get used to is that you donít need to put 9 points in every skill you want.

I hope some of this makes sense and helps let you understand what's going on. There is a lot to get used to in the new system. Expect lots of tweaks in the coming weeks. The best way you can help us refine the system is to keep an open mind and let us know how the skill system works in practice, and not how it looks in the UI or on the boards.


We look forward to more of you feedback.

-al

I have been working a spreadsheet to compare the two characters I copied from holodeck to tribble. The problem I have with the Tribble equations is that you state that thier would be one skill instead of three. But the tool tips of several skill box clearly shows they benifit the same skill. One example is Photonic Shockwave. It seems to receive benefits from Graviton Generators, Particle generators, and subspace decompiler. All three give the same bonus. Are all taken into account, or is it which ever is being used is calculated and the rest ignored?

Also, some skills are missing from the drop down menu in the skill tree. For example Hazard Emitters and photonic Officer are missing. What skills affect them?

-Keppoch
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 235
11-08-2011, 07:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keppoch
I have been working a spreadsheet to compare the two characters I copied from holodeck to tribble. The problem I have with the Tribble equations is that you state that thier would be one skill instead of three. But the tool tips of several skill box clearly shows they benifit the same skill. One example is Photonic Shockwave. It seems to receive benefits from Graviton Generators, Particle generators, and subspace decompiler. All three give the same bonus. Are all taken into account, or is it which ever is being used is calculated and the rest ignored?

-Keppoch

there are also multiple ships weapons trees.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 236
11-08-2011, 07:43 AM
Also, some skills are missing from the drop down menu in the skill tree. For example Hazard Emitters and photonic Officer are missing. What skills affect them?

-Keppoch
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 237
11-08-2011, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Palmera
this much i know katic. now may i direct you to all this other guys post, and you will get a understanding to why i said what i said, and why i was upset with him.
The fact that you were upset, and posted in the heat of that emotion, is why I posted he definition.

If we can't control ourselves, and post calmly, how can we hope to have a civil discussion?

We may not be able to prevent others from posting inflammatory or baiting posts, but we can control our own responses.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 238
11-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
And, yes, the skills cost 50% more, but there are half as many to purchase, which again is a net gain.
Do you actually know what current specs look like? Half the boxes are empty! In the new system almost every box is important and hence we have to spend more points to achieve the same effectiveness with a particular build because we cannot skip stuff that we don't actually use since it is lumped together with stuff we do want to use.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 239
11-08-2011, 09:28 AM
But that is the same as we had before you can't have a character that is good in space and on ground you have to decide again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 240
11-08-2011, 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keppoch
Also, some skills are missing from the drop down menu in the skill tree. For example Hazard Emitters and photonic Officer are missing. What skills affect them?

-Keppoch
If you click the drop down arrow where it says "Highlight contributions to" then select the ability you want to improve , it'll outline the skills that affect that that ability.
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