Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 241
11-08-2011, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z3R0B4NG View Post
And for gods sake man! Display the NUMBERS before and after of the affacted abilities!
I want to see how much energy i actually gain from putting in one point... or if i need 2 or 3 to get my weapons power up to where i want it... sometimes it doesn't move at all.

I want to know how much more dps my energy weapons do, how much resistance to knackbacks do i actually get out of that skill.... etc. etc.

Numbers d00d! NUMBERS!
I agree 100%. Right now it is very nebulous about what exactly is happening when you increase a skill. More in game UI feedback would be fantastic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 242
11-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohNyNorMuS View Post
Here's a quick fact. I'm still not as effective with the new system even with putting zero points into ground. I don't need to run any math formulas to prove it either. I simply have to look at my abilities and notice they are much lower than that on holodeck. Hazard emitters lowered heal values, check. DPS lower, check. So I'm supposed to believe that lower numbers are better? Right, so excuse me when I say your explanation means nothing to me because the "numbers don't lie" as they say. Your formula must be off somehow, somewhere.

I just wish there was enough time to actually make/refine/ polish a new system instead of just throwing this out there because of time constraints. The players deserve better.


This is just another situation where it looks good on paper and in theory, but in practice, the new skill system isn't what you guys are advertising it to be.
It's on a test server....it's a test....they even said it will need lots of tweaking.

I think it's a *bit* too soon to start lamenting a lack of polish, lol.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 243
11-08-2011, 10:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBFLordKrueg View Post
If you click the drop down arrow where it says "Highlight contributions to" then select the ability you want to improve , it'll outline the skills that affect that that ability.
That was what I was trying to do. However Hazard Emitters and photonic Officer are not on the list even though I have slotted a science officer with those abilities in the commander sci slot of my Intrepid retrofit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 244
11-08-2011, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
... The perception may be that you used to be able to, say purchase 9 points in a deflector skill, and buff a lot of my abilities. Now it looks like you have to max 3 or 4 abilities to get the same bonus. That is not actually the case. Before, when you bought a Deflector skill, it did affect a lot of science powers, but only a little bit (as low as 18). What you can do now is purchase 3 points in, say, Flow Capacitors, Shield Emitters, and Graviton Generators, and get 20 in each of those. ...
... and not be able to train a single Bridge Officer ability.

After playing with it for a long weekend, the one thing this really did was screw my science captains in ground combat, because all of their kits require an unaffordable spread of tier 4 and tier 5 skills to be effective. And even for tactical and engineer captains, kits have become the new starships: you can have as many as you want, but you can only afford to skill-up for one of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 245
11-08-2011, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
I wanted to take a moment to explain some of the math behind the skill system. I think there is some confusion on how it works and some things that may be altering perception of the new numbers.

In the old system (and the way ground still works), you could get 18 points from Tier 1, 30 from Tier 2, and 52 from Tier 3, 4 and 5. The idea is, if you owned all 3 skills that affect an ability, then you get a skill bonus of 100 towards that ability. Generally, it works something like this behind the scenes:

First, all skill bonuses are divided by 10. So a skill on 30 becomes 3. In reality, the skill bonus you are getting is actually 3, we just multiply the number in the UI by 10 to make it look cooler. Ok, so Let's say:

Skill_A Tier 1
Skill_B Tier 2
Skill_C Tier 3

Power_A:
Buff (Or damage, or whatever the power does): 10 x (1 + Skill_A + Skill_B + Skill_C)

So, Power_A does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_A would do 10 x (1 + .18 + .3 + .52) = 20.


Some abilities we tweaked to only use partial skills. For instance, a Confuse or Disable ability could not be doubled by having max skills. You might only get 50% benefit from your skills. An ability that only got 50% from skills might look like:

Power_B:
Debuff (say a control effect): 10 x (1 + 0.5 x (Skill_A + Skill_B + Skill_C))

So, Power_B does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_B would do 15.


Now that was the old system. In the new system, all Space skills give you up to 33. Most of you have noticed that all Console Mods, Deflectors and other items that grant skill bonuses have been reduced to 1/3 of their old value. This is not a nerf. You still get the same benefit from then that you used to. Here is why. The math on the abilities have changed to the following:


Power_A:
Buff (Or damage, or whatever the power does): 10 x (1 + 3 x (Skill_A))

So, Power_A does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_A would do 10 x (1 + 3 x .33) = 19.9. (ok, a 0.1 nerf, you caught me )


Alternately, for some Confuse or Disable abilities:

Power_B:
Debuff (say a control effect): 10 x (1 + 1.5 x (Skill_A))

So, Power_B does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_B would do 14.95.


So you only get one skill power to modify your abilities, and consoles numbers were reduced in magnitude, but you get 3 times the benefit from each of these. We had planned on changing the number on new space skills to be 99 or 100 per skill, but since ground skills were incomplete, it looked weird and confusing that ground skills were giving so much less than space skills. We did plan on updating all the numbers once ground skills were done. In hindsight, the current numbers may have just been too confusing. We will be working to update them in the coming weeks.

One last thing. Some of you may feel that you can't attain the levels you used to. Although the system is different, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, for the most part, you actually can get more from this system than you used to. The perception may be that you used to be able to, say purchase 9 points in a deflector skill, and buff a lot of my abilities. Now it looks like you have to max 3 or 4 abilities to get the same bonus. That is not actually the case. Before, when you bought a Deflector skill, it did affect a lot of science powers, but only a little bit (as low as 18). What you can do now is purchase 3 points in, say, Flow Capacitors, Shield Emitters, and Graviton Generators, and get 20 in each of those. Since your abilities take 3x the value from skills, thatís like getting 60 bonus that will affect 3 different types of abilities - far more than any single skill in the old system. And, yes, the skills cost 50% more, but there are half as many to purchase, which again is a net gain. What may be hard to get used to is that you donít need to put 9 points in every skill you want.

I hope some of this makes sense and helps let you understand what's going on. There is a lot to get used to in the new system. Expect lots of tweaks in the coming weeks. The best way you can help us refine the system is to keep an open mind and let us know how the skill system works in practice, and not how it looks in the UI or on the boards.


We look forward to more of you feedback.





-al
Geko, and thus is the problem with this. It would seem your making your comparisons with a totally skilled up venture. You assume that players to get X skill would chose to get all 3 of the existing boxes and then add the console to the mix making the "100" you tout above. Only this time, your putting more additions to the skill into points rather than the console item and using 'take away" development to get the consoles down to where the math works out.

But now, what if a player choses to go for the "rounded" build and thereby choses to put points somewhere else? Say they only used 5 or 7 points in 1 or 3 of the boxes, or even no points and then choses to use the console for the passive(s) for the well rounded aspects of the skill and a total build? A little of everything instead of all or nothing. Your existing build gave us, the players, that choice.

Your console NERF is just that and really becomes the "quint essential NERF" in these aspects. Not all players follow the dev lined out methods and if you underestimate your players your doing so at your own risk. Even tho Cryptic Developers have stated that Eng work best in Crusiers, Tacs work best in escorts, and Sci works best in Sci ships, I have a tac in a crusier, an Eng in a escort, and the only one I use for the developer common is a Sci in a Sci ship. Altho, I know of several builds who use multi options available to them that are now existing. You "take some of that away" in this build and console NERF and the "take away" development was not needed here.

What was stated to be the result was, getting rid of the skill aspects that limit a build to only one class of ship. You, Cryptic development, chose to do more, much, much, more than the stated goals. Nowhere was it even gleamed by the playerbase that consoles would be affected in the least, the actual math behnd the skills would be affected, etc up to the tribble patch. Another "Surprise!"?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 246
11-08-2011, 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
I wanted to take a moment to explain some of the math behind the skill system. I think there is some confusion on how it works and some things that may be altering perception of the new numbers.

In the old system (and the way ground still works), you could get 18 points from Tier 1, 30 from Tier 2, and 52 from Tier 3, 4 and 5. The idea is, if you owned all 3 skills that affect an ability, then you get a skill bonus of 100 towards that ability. Generally, it works something like this behind the scenes:

First, all skill bonuses are divided by 10. So a skill on 30 becomes 3. In reality, the skill bonus you are getting is actually 3, we just multiply the number in the UI by 10 to make it look cooler. Ok, so Let's say:

Skill_A Tier 1
Skill_B Tier 2
Skill_C Tier 3

Power_A:
Buff (Or damage, or whatever the power does): 10 x (1 + Skill_A + Skill_B + Skill_C)

So, Power_A does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_A would do 10 x (1 + .18 + .3 + .52) = 20.


Some abilities we tweaked to only use partial skills. For instance, a Confuse or Disable ability could not be doubled by having max skills. You might only get 50% benefit from your skills. An ability that only got 50% from skills might look like:

Power_B:
Debuff (say a control effect): 10 x (1 + 0.5 x (Skill_A + Skill_B + Skill_C))

So, Power_B does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_B would do 15.


Now that was the old system. In the new system, all Space skills give you up to 33. Most of you have noticed that all Console Mods, Deflectors and other items that grant skill bonuses have been reduced to 1/3 of their old value. This is not a nerf. You still get the same benefit from then that you used to. Here is why. The math on the abilities have changed to the following:


Power_A:
Buff (Or damage, or whatever the power does): 10 x (1 + 3 x (Skill_A))

So, Power_A does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_A would do 10 x (1 + 3 x .33) = 19.9. (ok, a 0.1 nerf, you caught me )


Alternately, for some Confuse or Disable abilities:

Power_B:
Debuff (say a control effect): 10 x (1 + 1.5 x (Skill_A))

So, Power_B does 10, but if you had all 3 skills at max, Power_B would do 14.95.


So you only get one skill power to modify your abilities, and consoles numbers were reduced in magnitude, but you get 3 times the benefit from each of these. We had planned on changing the number on new space skills to be 99 or 100 per skill, but since ground skills were incomplete, it looked weird and confusing that ground skills were giving so much less than space skills. We did plan on updating all the numbers once ground skills were done. In hindsight, the current numbers may have just been too confusing. We will be working to update them in the coming weeks.

One last thing. Some of you may feel that you can't attain the levels you used to. Although the system is different, and it's not a one-to-one comparison, for the most part, you actually can get more from this system than you used to. The perception may be that you used to be able to, say purchase 9 points in a deflector skill, and buff a lot of my abilities. Now it looks like you have to max 3 or 4 abilities to get the same bonus. That is not actually the case. Before, when you bought a Deflector skill, it did affect a lot of science powers, but only a little bit (as low as 18). What you can do now is purchase 3 points in, say, Flow Capacitors, Shield Emitters, and Graviton Generators, and get 20 in each of those. Since your abilities take 3x the value from skills, thatís like getting 60 bonus that will affect 3 different types of abilities - far more than any single skill in the old system. And, yes, the skills cost 50% more, but there are half as many to purchase, which again is a net gain. What may be hard to get used to is that you donít need to put 9 points in every skill you want.

I hope some of this makes sense and helps let you understand what's going on. There is a lot to get used to in the new system. Expect lots of tweaks in the coming weeks. The best way you can help us refine the system is to keep an open mind and let us know how the skill system works in practice, and not how it looks in the UI or on the boards.


We look forward to more of you feedback.





-al
Thanks for the information. Now a few numbers make more sense. I still think that you have erred a little on the skill cost. The aspect cut most was probably the science skil ltree - all the weapon and ship related skills that were effectively doubled, tripled and n-tupled up are not real "cuts" - most people already avoided spending points on these suboptimally already.

But the error is probably a little smaller than I thought at first.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 247
11-08-2011, 11:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keppoch
That was what I was trying to do. However Hazard Emitters and photonic Officer are not on the list even though I have slotted a science officer with those abilities in the commander sci slot of my Intrepid retrofit.
To those saying Hazard Emitters doesnt get boosted: Starship Hull Healing (Tier 1 Engineering) - improves the healing ability of Hazard Emitters, and gives the Rank III training for hazard Emitters

Though I didn't find anything on Photonic Officer...

As for those saying photonic shockwave is affected by multiple skills, that is true, 2 skills to be exact:
Starship Particle Generator - looks like it increases the Photonic Shockwave damage only
Starship Graviton generators - Looks like it only increases the knockback of Photonic Shockwave
Starship Inertial Dampeners - it's just a knockback resist, it doesnt affect Photonic Shockwave in the sense you need this skill if you want your Photonic Shockwave's power to be improved

So it's still interesting that PSW needs 2 skills to maximize it's potential (though most don't care about the damage...)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 248
11-09-2011, 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
The fact that you were upset, and posted in the heat of that emotion, is why I posted he definition.

If we can't control ourselves, and post calmly, how can we hope to have a civil discussion?

We may not be able to prevent others from posting inflammatory or baiting posts, but we can control our own responses.
perhaps. well neither fact or matter that has happen will change. he will do what he doesnt, and he will do so on my block list. if he cant be civil, or be friendly, than sit there and more or less boost about being mature and perfect, than that is his lose.

and thank, for being a diplomat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 249
11-09-2011, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keppoch
Also, some skills are missing from the drop down menu in the skill tree. For example Hazard Emitters and photonic Officer are missing. What skills affect them?

-Keppoch
It's been mentioned, I forget where, that several skills no longer have captain skill bonuses. My own Hammer of the Gods, Orbital Strike, doesn't have bonuses anymore. The good news is that the new default values seem to roughly match my Holodeck skills contribution.

Perhaps we should set up a running list of skills that don't get boosted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 250
11-09-2011, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyEx
It's been mentioned, I forget where, that several skills no longer have captain skill bonuses. My own Hammer of the Gods, Orbital Strike, doesn't have bonuses anymore. The good news is that the new default values seem to roughly match my Holodeck skills contribution.

Perhaps we should set up a running list of skills that don't get boosted.
Well..... Ground skills haven't been revamped yet, so maybe it'd be best to not include those for now ?

However, I noticed Engineering Fleet (a space skill) now has no skills that modify it, so, there's one.
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