Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Okay, so here is my preliminary look at the revamped Space skill tree.

(TLDR summation in second post)

(Random side pet-peeve, they've misspelled Maneuvers in the UI, they've got it Maneavers)

I started this with the goal of being able to switch back and forth between Science and Cruiser ships without needing to respec, while essentially duplicating my current build. I knew going in that doing all 3 would be unlikely without too little spread over too much, but in my opinion 2/3 of the ships without worrying about it is a major step up.

For the build I have spent the minimum for each tier, and I left points in ground on the (perhaps untrue) assumption that when they separate out the ground and space trees they won't be adding any additional skill points.

TRIBBLE build

Tac Systems

7 Weapon Training, 7 Energy Weapons, 5 Maneuvers, 0 Attack Patterns, 3 Energy Weapon Specialization
----------------------- 7 Projectile Wep, 7 Targeting, 0 Stealth, 3 Projectile Wep Specialization

Eng Systems

0 Battery, 7 Structural Integrity, 5 EPS 6 Engine Performance, 6 Armor
6 Hull Rep 0 Sub-Sys repair, 7 Impulse 6 Hull Plating 6 Aux Performance
------------- 7 Efficiency 7 Warp Core 7 Shield Performance, 6 Weapon Performance

Science
6 Flow Cap 0 Insulators 0 Graviton 0 Internal dampeners 0 Countermeasures
7 Shield Em 7 Shield Sys 7 Particle 6 Sensors 2 Subspace Decomp

Science Officer
5 E/S/T away team leaders
5 Scientific Practice 5 Doctor 5 Physiology

My holodeck build barely changes between Galaxy-R and Intrepid-R (mostly because I don't worry about stripping science skills for Engineering when I have most already anyway, and I never put more than 7 points into any skill)

Holodeck Build


Starfleet Training
E/S/T leader
Attack Vectors, Combat Maneuvers, Battle Strategy
Starship Command, Cruiser/Sci t2-5

Energy Weapons
Weapon Training, Beam Weapons, Phaser

Projectile Weapons
Projectile Training, Torpedo, Quantum

Engineering Taining*
7 in ALL except Aux and Shield Maintenance (5) Syb Sys Repair, Engine and Weapon Maintenance (0)

Operations
Ops Training, Deflectors, emitters, Sensors, Sensor Array, Deflector Field, Hazard System, Sensor Probes

Sci Officer
Sci Practice, Doctor, Physiology

*Hull Repair is replaces by Astrometrics in the Intrepid Build


Obviously these aren't PvP centric builds (though I have used both in PvP, and at least not embarrassed myself) and not overly concerned with min-maxing. My goal is a good solid foundation for a variety of situations.


Glaring Problems:

I have next to nothing in resistance skills like countermeasures, meaning I'm a lot more vulnerable to things like energy siphon, target subsystems, etc. There simply wasn't anything left over for them and I couldn't justify the cost.

I'm still fairly limited with science offensive powers. Sure CPB will work great, as will the healing powers, but I'm crap at a lot of others - and I especially don't like the 2 in Subspace Decompiler.

Then there is the biggie - nothing in Attack Patterns. That makes using Escorts especially stupid, even with little concern for PvP or min-maxing.

Batteries and Stealth, on the other hand, hardly seem worth the effort - especially when we look at the actual numbers. (i.e. actual difference Holodeck to Tribble with nothing in stealth is ~100 points for Mask Energy Signature 1)


Okay, lotta numbers coming up. 1st number is Galaxy on Tribble, 2nd is Galaxy on Holodeck, colored to show which came out ahead, red for Holodeck, blue for Tribble

Defense 60.7 % 63.8%

Hull HP 49,638 49,239
Hull Repair 163.2%/min 157.3%
Shield Strength 11,245 11,174
Resistances 23.2% 21.7%
Accuracy 13.6% 14.2%
Crit Chance 3.4% 5.3%
Crit Severity is 59.1% 80.3%
Speed 21.75 21.91
Turn Rate 9.2 deg/sec 9.5
Beam Array 831(665) 825(660)
Dual Beam 1,080(864) 1,073(858)
Quantum 4,879(574) 4,839(569)

Power Levels
118/100 118/100
68/40 70/40
53/25 54/25
61/35 61/35

Note that so far the differences are relatively minor either way, except with crit chance/severity, while power setting variations are negligible, and things like hit points and damage actually favor the Tribble build.

Same Thing, Intrepid-R on Tribble and Holodeck

Defense 63.1% 65.1%
Hull HP 34,364 34,088
Hull Repair 125.5% 83.7%
Shields 14,619 14,527
Resists 23,3% 21,7%
Accuracy 13.6% 14.2%
Crit Chance 3.4% 5.3%
Crit Severity 59.1% 80.3%
Speed 22.70 22.44
Turn Rate 21.8 22.6
Beam Array 372(298) 371(297)
Dual Beam 483(387) 482(386)
Quantum 5,273(620) 5,234(616)

Power Levels
57/30 57/30
58/35 62/35
56/35 56/35
123/100 123/100

Overall, I'm actually pleased with the results. The changes are relatively minor, while the Intrepid-R gets a substantial boost to Hull Repair Rate, without the need to respec between these two, or any other Crusier and Science Vessel.

Still, my big concerns are Attack Patterns, Resistances, and Flexibility in Science Power choices, though the latter problem is basically unchanged from the Holodeck setup.

Now for part 2 of the number game - a sampling of Bof and Captain Powers

To keep things simple I've preserved the same power and console layout between Holodeck and Tribble, with the exception of Science Consoles on Tribble which are quite different now - instead of 1 for deflector field and 2 for astrometrics it is now 1 Shield Emitter 2 Particle, with the main focus being its impact on Charged Particle Burst.

Again, Galaxy build on tribble first, then Holodeck, color codded for our convenience.

Emergency Power to Shields 1 - 1,566 regen, 1,387 regen
Engineering Team 2 - 8,820 HP, 8,239
Reverse Shield Polarity - 6 seconds, 8 seconds
Aux to SIF 3 - 5,456 4,967
Hazard Emitters 1 - 8,729 9,191
Transfer Shield Strength 2 - 994 regen/283 for 15 seconds, 729 regen/208 for 15 seconds
Directed Energy Modulation - +30/pulse +21/pulse
Starship Dampening Field 3 - +63 resist, +81
Sensor Scan 3 - -43 resist, -574 stealth, +5.7% stealth sight vs -48/-535/5.4%

Now Intrepid on Tribble and Holodeck

Science Team 2 - 3,446 3,054
Hazard Emitters 3 - 21,436 23,931
Charged Particle Burst 3 - 3,794, 4,076
Transfer Shield Strength 3 - 2,062/588 for 15, 1,500/428 for 15
Emergency Power to Shield 1 - 1,644 1,387
Mask Energy Signature 1 - 4,628, 4,798
Dampening Field 3 - 98, 137
Sensor Scan 4 - -67/574/5.7%, -74/535/5.4%

I'm not actually sure why Hazard Emiters, Sensor Scan, and Dampening Field come out behind on Tribble, though the difference isn't anything major. Charged Particle Burst I THINK is mainly due to the console changes, but I haven't actually compared the two without consoles equipped. The loss for CPB is about 7%, which, while annoying, isn't a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

So what needs to be fixed?

It feels like we are lacking sufficient skill points to properly get set up with a comfortable generalist build that doesn't suck nor is majorly over-powered. I think if we keep the same number of skill points for space we currently have for both when Ground is separated it might be about enough (my current build has 20 points t1, 5 t2 and 5 t3 in ground for reference) though with the higher cost of skills all around this might be an underestimation.

t4 and t5 especially feel like there is insufficient points to go around, once the required points are spent on t1-3.

Science Powers are still too weighted towards the lower tiers - i.e. it will heavily favor using the powers linked to lower tier skills rather than t4 or 5 stuff, which will damage the variety of good builds for things like STFs and PvP. I'm honestly not sure how to fix that, since you can't duplicate the fix for weapon types without reducing science to purely lower tier powers.

Here's a radical idea, one I'm not sure is feasible. What if all the science powers from tiers 3, 4, and 5 defaulted to 3, but when we put points into 2 of them it bumps the other four up to tier 4, then when you put points into 2 more the last two become t5? That way you can't simply max them all out, but which ones you get access to first is your choice? You'd probably have to limit it further so the 'defensive' and 'offensive' ones must still be taken as pairs (i.e. you can't make dampeners and countermeasures both t3) but if the tech can be put in that could certainly go a long way to freeing up science builds.

Anyway, these are just my preliminary thoughts. I like the potential here, I think it can work, but it isn't quite there yet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-05-2011, 01:34 AM
This is an excellent look at actual numbers with current Holodeck characters and their Tribble versions. Thanks for doing the workup.

Hopefully Geko will be on top of things and continue to work on the skill system and put more builds of it on Tribble in the upcoming weeks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-05-2011, 01:36 AM
TL/DR version

I tried to duplicate my Holodeck build on Tribble and also make it feasible to switch between Cruisers and Science ships without any problems. Overall it worked to my satisfaction, except for the resist skills, (for things like placate, knockback, energy drain) critical chance/severity, and the variety of science powers I could spec for.

Things like Hull Strength, Shield Strength, damage, and damage resistance actually improved in the Tribble build, and most cases where there was a net loss on Tribble it wasn't very large at all.

Using Escorts though is not advisable due to no points available for Attack Pattern skill and not enough for weapon specialization.

I think we need to find a way to do for science powers what has been done for Damage types so it isn't weighted against the powers linked to t4 and t5 skills. My best suggestion is find a away to make the science powers 'float' so you can pick which are t3, t4, and t5 so it isn't any cheaper to do them all, but you can pick which to focus on easier.

Also, it feels like we just don't have quite enough skill points to go around period. If we keep all the current skill points for space when ground is separated it will almost be enough, but that won't be quite there since t4 and t5 are so expensive and so important.

I can't say how this affects min-maxed or PvP builds, since this was always intended to be a generalist build, but as a generalist build I like the direction the revamp is going, even if it isn't there yet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-05-2011, 01:44 AM
I really don't think they'll be keeping the same amount of SP as just a space pool. I think it's going to be reduced, personally.

Either way, I don't think we'll have such a large amount of points needed for the T1 and T2 skills (IE, you won't need to spend as many SP on T1 or T2 when the ground skills are removed).

That being said, they do need to figure out just how much we'll have for the space pool. It'd be nice to have what value they're thinking of so we can test the space skills with that many points and not the full pool (unless they are keeping the 72k for just space).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-05-2011, 01:51 AM
Yeah, pulling ground points out of the total currently shared is more likely, which is why my build left them in. (if reduced from 7 to 5)

Reducing how much is needed for each tier could certainly help too - I mean, the 20 points currently in t1 ground would what, completely max out all t1 space? It would be a bit less after grounds portion is taken out, but that might actually make it worse considering most of us either don't spend any in ground or don't spend any in t4 or 5 ground like I do.

Heck, the impression I get on holodeck is that putting 7 points into Sci Practice, Doctor, and Physiology puts me towards the top of the curve of points spent on ground skills.

Hopefully I'll be able to try some more things out soon, but it will be a bit tricky - my main used her last respec token to do this one and my alts are currently set up only for training bofs different skills, though I guess it isn't too bad since I'll have to respec them all anyway when it goes live.

Humm, which would be more useful for testing skill builds with my last slot - Tactical, Engineering, or Science Captain? (I want to save the third for my Klingon character)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-05-2011, 12:44 PM
Here's my second look with my Tactical Captain Flying a Defiant-R

Note this is originally an alt used for training bofs, so white/green mk X gear only, no aegis or borg set.
I also removed Science Consoles since I don’t have enough money on hand on this toon to replace them with the appropriate new ones on Tribble

Tribble Build

Tactical
9 weapon 8 energy 7 maneuvers 7 attack patterns 4 energy specialization
------------- 6 proj 8 targeting 0 Stealth 4 Proj specialization
Engineering
0 Batteries 7 Struc Integrity 0 EPS 7 Engine Performance 2 Armor
8 Hull Repair 0 Subsys Repair 7 Impulse 7 Hull Plating 7 Aux Performance
---------------- 7 Efficiency 8 Warp Core 7 Shield Perf. 7 Weapon Performance
Science
0 Flow Capacitor 2 Power Insulators 0 Graviton 2 Inertial Damp 2 Countermeasures
8 Shield Emitters 7 Shield Systems 0 Particle Generators 0 Sensors 0 Subspace Decompiler
Ground
5 E/S/T away team
5 close combat 3 security 3 firearms 4 martial arts

It's less points in ground that I could readily afford on Holodeck, and less points in things like performance and weapon skills.
I do however like that 2 points in things like Inertial Dampeners gives me essentially half the benefit 9 points does.
Also note again that with 0 points in stealth I take only a 38 point loss of cloak capability, which is less than 1%

Holodeck Build

Starfleet Training
5 E/S/T Team Leader
9 Attack Vectors, Combat Maneuvers, Battle Strategy
9 Command, Escort, H Escort, Tac Escort, Retrofit Escort
Energy Weapons
9 Energy Training, Beam, Cannon, Phaser
Projectile Weapons
9 Projectile Training, Torp, Quantum
Engineering
7 Warp Core, Aux/Eng/Shield Erficiency
5 Aux/Shield Maintenance
9 Eng/Shield/Aux/Weapon Performance
Operations
7 Ops Training, Deflectors, Emitters, Deflector Field, Hazard System
Ground
7 Close Combat
5 Security, Firearms, Special Forces
4 Martial Arts

Honestly, after months of not using Tac ships or Captains the amount of stuff I was able to get out of this build surprised me. I guess I’m too used to the demands of complex science builds. Anyway, worth noting that I was able to max out a lot of the core skills and still put a decent number of points into things like my sci/eng heals and more in ground that with my Sci Main.

Tribble is on left, Holdeck on right. Red means holodeck was superior, blue Tribble

Defense 68.6% 70%

Hull 38,183 39001
Hull Repair Rate 117.6% 60.0%
Shields 7,900 8069
Resist 21% 19.8%
Accuracy 14.5% 15.0%
Crit Chance 2.5% 4.5%
Crit Severity 50.0% 75.0%
Speed 28.6 24.60
Turn Rate 31.3 deg/sec 32.8

Dual Cannons 795(1,060) 804(1,072)
Quantum 4,448(523) 4,576(538)
Beam Array 925(740) 935(748)
Turret 414(552) 418(558)


Power Levels
124/100 124/100
61/40 60/40
49/25 49/25
57/35 56/35

Bof Power changes are a bit trickier to quantify for a Tac build, since a lot of them don’t say anything beyond ‘increase the number of shots fired by each cannon volley for 10 seconds’

Attack Pattern Omega 3 - 24% damage/36 resist/152% speed and turn/44% defense
-------------------------------50% damage, +30 resist, +132% flight speed/turn rate, +30% defense

Attack Pattern Alpha 3 - 48% damage, 4.8% cric chance, 46% severity, 116% turn rate
-----------------------------+60% damage, 4% crit chance, 40% severity, 80% turn rate

Okay, attack patterns have something else going on besides the skill change - note that damage bonuses are lower (a lot lower) across the board, but the other benefits are higher, again across the board

Cloak – 4,982, 5,020 stealth
Fire on My Mark 3 – 42 lower resist/109 less stealth, 50 damage resist/150 stealth less
Emergency Power to Shields 1 – 1,481/15power/18% less damage 1,350/22 power/18% less damage
Aux to SiF 1 – 2,857, 2,655
Science Team 1 – 2,221, 2,157 regen
Hazard Emitters 2 – 10,159/19 11,546 over 15, 22 resist for 15
Tactical Fleet 2 – 22%/12 to maneuvers/targeting systems, 30% damage, 16 to attack vectors

with tac fleet the damage is less but it looks like the bonus to skills comes out slightly ahead, though it is hard to be sure.

While the numbers here are a lot more 'red' than the earlier test it isn't nearly as bad as it looks. Defense, Hull, Shields, Accuracy didn't drop all that much, and considering these same limitations and changes are universal shouldn't be too bad for things like pvp since they affect everyone equally, and of course this small a change won't noticeably change difficulty for pve for most of us. The lower damage is a little more aggravating, though actual change in cannon dps is 9 - hardly game breaking.

The same concerns pop up from before - on Holodeck I can spend a ton of t5 level points on lower tiers, while here I am scrambling for every point. Weapon Specilizations aren't getting the points the really need, and I had to put quite a few less points in ground skills. That last one of course, isn't as worrisome since that revamp is still to come.

The one great big advantage I see here is that switching to a healer science or tank/healer cruiser won't require any changes to be viable - if not min-maxed. I'd prefer some points in subsystem repair and especially eps for a cruiser build, but I think it would still be effective.

That, though, I'll have to look at later.

You know, one quick solution presents itself to the min-max problem. How about separate builds for pve and pvp? That way we can have a nice build like this for pve that gives us plenty of options and room to change ships as we want while the hyper focused pvp build can be done as well?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-05-2011, 12:46 PM
Just checked my build differences with my Main and found that my resistances went up by ~1% and my attack statistics dropped by a good margin. Turn rate was the same, as a cruiser I never bother with it. My power transfer rate shot up quite a bit on the Tribble server as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-05-2011, 01:31 PM
Thanks Rokesmith!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-05-2011, 01:38 PM
It seems to me that switching ships within a category (assault to star, long range to recon) will be easier, but across these, it's just as hard as before, if not worse. I also feel a lot more locked into my weapon choices, and I think not using torps at all might be more efficient for Escorts now, as the skills are overall more expensive.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-05-2011, 01:50 PM
What is definitely easier is switching between different flavors of tactical ship - raptors to BoPs, for example.

Even switching to a cruiser is no big deal.

Going heavy science or heavy heals is still a re-spec, though. But is that a bad thing? Not in my opinion.
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