Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-05-2011, 05:09 PM
Good job OP bringing in some solid numbers for comparison.

Again ...and Im sure someone else has already pointed this out... the dev blog says they "fully expect to have to rebalancea". This is a trial run after all.

Another thing to keep in mind the devs havent even really touched Ground. So I suspect when all is said and done you will be able to make a balanced Ground/Space character that can do well in both.


For those that have seen my past raves... this is me eating some humble pie
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-05-2011, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
It seems to me that switching ships within a category (assault to star, long range to recon) will be easier, but across these, it's just as hard as before, if not worse. I also feel a lot more locked into my weapon choices, and I think not using torps at all might be more efficient for Escorts now, as the skills are overall more expensive.
There could be some truth to this. Once I get home tonight I'm going to take my Defiant build and compare it to a tank Cruiser and Heal Science without respecing, as well as the actual respec on Holodeck. Looking at it I definately don't think it will work for shield-stripper/offensive science, but I hold out hope for the other two.

As for weapon choices - I was trying for more balance here and I still ended up putting less into torps than I normally ever do, and no torps would have a lot more advantages in this version than on holodeck - especially when I realize that that would mean your could go from 4/4 in energy/projectile specialization to 8 in energy, or 7 there and put the last 500 somewhere else.

Still, it does make cannon/beam hybrids more doable, though the console situation penalizes 'rainbow' setups more than I would like.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13 Not enough skill points.
11-05-2011, 05:23 PM
And, skills cost too much.

This needs to be tweaked, and ground needs a separate skill point pool.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-05-2011, 06:08 PM
If they just wanted to make it easier to switch ships they just would have to change the skilltree the way, that u have only 1 set of ship skills instead of skills for every shipclass. The new skilltree is much worse then the current one is.

The powers lost about 1/3 effectiveness. Not to mention the nerfs to several consoles and equipment parts. Same with the different Weapons.

The game will get more gear related with that, to force people to buy the gear as a dilithiumsink (moneysink).

If they want a dilithiuim sink it would be way easier if ppl actually would have to repair their ships, like in other games where u have to maintaine your equipment to keep getting the full potential of it.

And the statement that the new skilltree is easier to understand is imo not true. They just would have to make a better documentation for the old skilltree. Like listing all powers that are affected by the skill as a tooltip, and maybe 1 or 2 hints how they affect it.

I mean i really liked the game, until now.

I am not against f2p at all, but seems the ppl who said that the f2p change will make the game worse, were right.

Atm it seems more like a free to fail game, according to the current developement.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-05-2011, 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternenfaenger
If they just wanted to make it easier to switch ships they just would have to change the skilltree the way, that u have only 1 set of ship skills instead of skills for every shipclass. The new skilltree is much worse then the current one is.
Exactly. Combine the ship captain skills and the weapon type skills and refine the descriptions for all powers to say exactly what they do, and you're done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sternenfaenger
The powers lost about 1/3 effectiveness. Not to mention the nerfs to several consoles and equipment parts. Same with the different Weapons.

The game will get more gear related with that, to force people to buy the gear as a dilithiumsink (moneysink).
Yup... which is exactly opposite of what was said just earlier this year, that gear wasn't going to be the be-all, end-all.

I also have the feeling that they wanted this nerf to make it so that the brand new F2P'ers that join will be more on par with us once they hit VA (I see massive leveling bonuses coming our way for the first month or 2 to encourage them to hit VA faster, which means they'll also be more inclined to buy c-store ships, since there won't be enough time to refine enough dilithium to buy a real ship).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-05-2011, 06:34 PM
Not to steal anyone's thunder but this is a good thread and good idea. I thought I would throw my results into the mix for comparison. Thank you for publishing this OP.

Tribble Build

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...5-10-29-01.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...5-10-29-11.jpg

Holodeck Build

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...5-16-45-42.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...5-16-45-33.jpg

http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...5-16-45-21.jpg



1st number is Intrepid-R on Holodeck, 2nd is Intrepid on Tribble, colored to show which came out ahead, red for Holodeck, blue for Tribble.

Note the powers nerf from the Tribble build. Target Subsystems, Sensor Scan and Science Fleet have been particularly hit hard as Geko warned us they would be. That was definitely followed through on.
Captain Geko wrote: "The effectiveness (magnitude or duration) of those skills will be modified to approximately 75% of what you can achieve now with full skills. For example, if an ability would grant a base 10% debuff, and could be improved to a 20% debuff if you have max (9 levels) in all 3 skills that affected that ability, then that ability now will just come with a flat 17.5% debuff."


Defense 59.8% // 58.3%
Hull HP 35,101 // 35,101
Hull Repair 60% // 128.5%
Shields 13,841 // 13,841
Resists 22.6% // 24.3%
Accuracy 15% 15%
Crit Chance 4.5% // 3.4%
Crit Severity 75% // 59.1%
Speed 23.93 // 23.03
Turn Rate 25.1 // 22.7

Beam Array 155(124) // 266(213)
Tricobolt 15,143 // 14,375
Quantum 5,669 // 5,391



Power Levels
40/25 50/25
69/50 71/50
56/25 57/25

125/100 125/100


Target Subsystems I -45 Shield Power Setting // -36 Shield Power Setting
Target Subsystems II -60 Shield Power Setting // -48 Shield Power Setting

***At max skill Tribble's version of Target Subs II just became as good as Holodeck's version of Target Subs I

Emergency Power To Shields I 1,462 - +22 - 18% // 1,346 +22 - 18%
Emergency Power To Shields II 1,950 - +32 - 22% // 1,794 +30 - 24%


Science Team I 2,149 Shield Regeneration // 2,018 Shield Regeneration

Hazard Emitters I 14,587 +22 DR // +13,195 +23 DR


Scramble Sensors I 14 seconds (non spec) // 13 seconds (non spec)

Tractor Beam III 116 Kinetic Damage x42 (102 DPS) // 93 Kinetic Damage x42 (82 DPS)


Transfer Shield Strength II 1,149 - 327 - 18% // 1,277 - 364 - 18%
Transfer Shield Strength III 1,436 - 409 - 22% // 1,596 - 455 - 22%


Gravity Well III **Holodeck tooltip broken** // 2,076 Kinetic Damage per/sec -0.53 Repel

Sensor Scan -97 All DR // -68 All DR

Subnuke - 252 % // -233%

Science Fleet 40 % DR to shields // 33% DR to shields

In conclusion, the skill tree was a serious nerf.

I can get better results from the Tribble build with a Positron Deflector and Starfleet Elite Engines coupled with the Starfleet Elite Shields. The two builds posted above are as identical as I can get them accompanied with the counterparts gear from the other server. Changes in consoles have been accounted for and appropriately adjusted on the Tribble build. Deflector, Engines and Shield remain the same.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-06-2011, 12:27 AM
Interesting numbers Rooster.

Definitely an overall nerf, though I have to ask - was this purely an attempt at duplication for the sake of comparison or is the Tribble build the way you would actually spec if it went live tomorrow? (Thankfully it isn't)

I also wonder if it is peculiar to me to not be overly worried about light to moderate nerfs that affect the entire player base equally? I mean, the way I see it is that if everyone's shields and hull (for example) drop a few hundred points with the conversion it basically washes out since no one group gains any advantage from it. Does that make sense?

I guess part of it is also that I'm more interested in the ability to jump from ship to ship without respecing than I am with honing a single build to razor sharpness.

With these numbers in mind what would you suggest be changed?

Comparing these with my own numbers I also wonder if things are showing up properly too, certainly a troubling thought.

Take for example crit chance and severity. You've got no points in weapon specialization and yet your build has a 4.5% bonus chance - while mine with 3 and 4 points in each ends up with 3.4% on my main (3 points each) and 2.5% with (4 points) my Tac alt.

I guess it could be things like accolade buffs running in the background, but I don't have the time right now to go digging to compare that one thing.

For some reason I was also surprised you managed to get hull, shields, and accuracy to come out exactly the same, given that the science build more or less had the same skill points in the relevant skills Holodeck/Tribble and still came out ahead (7 each) while the tac dropped from 9 to 7 and only lost about 900 hull points.

As for powers - I'm curious as to the reasoning behind nerfing (aside from skill changes) things like captain powers and the damage bonuses to attack patterns.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-06-2011, 01:28 AM
Okay here is my tac captain plopped into an Excelsior without any change to the skill set-up designed purely for flying an escort.

Tribble Build

Tactical
9 weapon 8 energy 7 maneuvers 7 attack patterns 4 energy specialization
------------- 6 proj 8 targeting 0 Stealth 4 Proj specialization
Engineering
0 Batteries 7 Struc Integrity 0 EPS 7 Engine Performance 2 Armor
8 Hull Repair 0 Subsys Repair 7 Impulse 7 Hull Plating 7 Aux Performance
---------------- 7 Efficiency 8 Warp Core 7 Shield Perf. 7 Weapon Performance
Science
0 Flow Capacitor 2 Power Insulators 0 Graviton 2 Inertial Damp 2 Countermeasures
8 Shield Emitters 7 Shield Systems 0 Particle Generators 0 Sensors 0 Subspace Decompiler
Ground
5 E/S/T away team
5 close combat 3 security 3 firearms 4 martial arts

Note that gear is mk X green and white, and not all engineering consoles are being used, with none in science.

Holodeck build is basically the same as Holodeck Defiant posted earlier, with the appropriate ship skills swapped, and cannon points (plus 1 from ground) put into 4 points of Hull Repair. I accidentally forgot to devote points to Engineering Training in t1, but didn’t want to waste a respect token to change just that. Hopefully it won’t mess up the numbers too much. I likely would have taken the necessary points from ground skills to do so, especially since it is a t1 skill, so no other changes would have been necessary.

First row is a repeat of the Tribble/Holodeck numbers in the Defiant. Second row is Tribble Excelsior 1st, Holodeck 2nd. Red = Holodeck was superior, blue for Tribble

Defense 68.6% 70%
58.6% 60.0%
Hull 38,183 39001
49,638 50,701
Hull Repair Rate 117.6% 60.0%
169.3% 112.3%
Shields 7,900 8069
8778 8,966
Resist 21% 19.8%
21% 19.8%
Accuracy 14.5% 15.0%
14.5% 15.0%
Crit Chance 2.5% 4.5%
2.5% 4.5%
Crit Severity 50.0% 75.0%
50.0% 75.0%
Speed 28.6 24.60
26.92 23.51
Turn Rate 31.3 deg/sec 32.8
13.6 14.1

Quantum 4,448(523) 4,576(538)
4,448(523)4,576(538)
Beam Array 925(740) 935(748)
799(639)809(647)

Power Levels
124/100 124/100
61/40 60/40
49/25 49/25
57/35 56/35

114/100 114/100
66/40 65/40
58/30 58/30
58/30 58/30

Emergency Power to Shields 1 – 1,482/+15 power 1,350/22
Aux to SiF 1 – 2,880/21 resist 2,692/21
Aceton Beam 3– 50 dmg/30 (1500 dmg) -500 resist 2,046 dmg, -50% damage
(now covered under science skill ‘Particle Generators, btw, and with a completely different effect, making direct comparison impossible, though damage is lower on Tribble)
Engineering Team 1 – 5,994 4,961
Science Team – 2,221 2,157
Hazard Emitters 2 – 10,242 11,707

So ship stats definitely came out more in favor of Holodeck this time around, though still mostly minor differences, something like 1000 less hull strength being the biggie, shields dropped less than 200 by comparison.

Healing Bof powers actually favors Tribble, except for Hazard Emitters which I'm starting to think might just have been nerfed a bit besides the skill changes, and actual damage didn't go down that much (like 7 points of dps for the important one - beams)

More offensive bof powers (science and engineering more so) are less useful with this build, but it is meant to be a tank/healer option anyway.

The key to remember here is that no respec was required to go from the Defiant to the Excelsior, and both builds are still, in my opinion, workable for anything besides serious pvp (and I'd still use it in pvp, I'd just have to accept that I'd be doing so with something of a disadvantage against many opponents)

Still, the same problems of crit chance dropping shows up, as does lack of variety in offensive abilities from the science and engineering side of the street. For me though, the biggest concern is still how little I can put into ground skills and how tight points are in t4 and 5. As I've said before on Holodeck right now I can use a lot of points for t4-5 to further flesh out lower tiers, while in Tribble - no matter the build I'm looking at - not only can I not spare any from the last two tiers I don't have enough for the essential skills, let alone the others that would be nice to have.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-06-2011, 01:13 AM
Rokesmith, some of these responses may seem rattled because it is getting late here and I'm losing my train of thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokesmith View Post
Definitely an overall nerf, though I have to ask - was this purely an attempt at duplication for the sake of comparison or is the Tribble build the way you would actually spec if it went live tomorrow? (Thankfully it isn't).
It's most definitely an attempt to duplicate. The more I play with this skilltree the more I'm thinking that many things are not working properly with it. Also, I'm starting to wonder if a lot in this new skill tree could just just be described as "fluff" intended to make the skilltree appear more fleshed out. You mentioned Weapons Specializations and I saw no sign that my Crits were benefiting from this skill anywhere in my tooltips when I had actually invested some points into it. Starship Sensors is another skill which is somewhat misleading as it is only supposed to be adding to Stealth sight and resistance to confuse and placate. However, I have noticed it affecting my timers on Scramble Sensors by awarding it 3 additional seconds when that should be falling under Countermeasures in the skilltree. Frankly. if all Starship Sensors is going to do is increase Stealthsight and give resistance to confuse and placate then I really don't know why anyone would spec for it. It's easier just to carry a Science Team and you don't even need to spec for that. Starship Armor Reinforcements looks like a "fluff" skill as well and why is it only adding kinetic DR? We need to see some numbers in these tooltips so we can know what exactly they are giving us if anything at all. I'm not even sure why Starship Armor Reinforcement was even added. There seems to be no equivalent of it in the old tree and why is it T5? My DR numbers came out the same as Holodeck without putting any points in the Tribble build which makes me think it is something new. I've always had my concerns that Subsystem Repair is another "fluff" skill designed to suck in unsuspecting builders with false promises. If it does work there needs to be a tooltip better describing it at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokesmith View Post
I also wonder if it is peculiar to me to not be overly worried about light to moderate nerfs that affect the entire player base equally? I mean, the way I see it is that if everyone's shields and hull (for example) drop a few hundred points with the conversion it basically washes out since no one group gains any advantage from it. Does that make sense?
Just from a PvE perspective it is most definitely worrisome because you're looking at prolonging space combat through these nerfs which could be a turnoff to new players. You're basically becoming more reliant on the games "extras" such as slotting shipboard DOffs, Buffs from doing Doff assignments and forced crafting for purple gear as you level just to make the grind smoother. Captain Geko has nerfed most powers to 75% of their previous potential. It is essentially going to be another economy sink. Powers like Charged Particle Burst, Gravity Well, Eject Warp Plasma and Target Subsystems are 75% of their Holodeck values to make players more gear dependent. I didn't craft a single thing for the first toon I leveled in STO. I didn't even know where Memory Alpha was. The beautiful thing about that was I didn't need to. My build was crappy, I selected all the wrong passive traits and I had no idea what I was doing but I had fun. I sometimes wonder if all of these economy sinks that are coming into the game (Powers nerf, crafting, etc) only serve the purpose of complicating things for new players and frustrating the old players. Sometimes less is more and Cryptic may in fact be over analyzing things.

Powers should remain prenerf so as not to upset players you already have because most people are only going to see it for what it is. If the devs want to do a powers nerf as a means for an economy sink then they should really think seriously about just raising HP and shields on NPC's. It's a double edged sword but I wouldn't take away from what the players already have. In my opinion, only negative things will come from that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokesmith View Post
Comparing these with my own numbers I also wonder if things are showing up properly too, certainly a troubling thought.
My numbers may have actually been listed backwards to yours. 1st number is Holodeck, 2nd is Tribble, colored to show which came out ahead, red for Holodeck, blue for Tribble.

You listed your Tribble numbers first. That is where the confusion may lie perhaps?

However, I don't fully trust the numbers I'm receiving from this skill tree at the moment. I've seen several errors with it.

I do have several accolade buffs with the toon that I posted. It was made with PvP in mind and it does have quite a few passive bonuses from accolades.
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