Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 1 Cruisers v. Escorts
11-07-2011, 03:57 PM
Ok, so, here is what I don't really understand, cruisers are, for all intents and purposes, capital ships, I get that. As such they are big and slow. That obviously give an advantage, at least in crew compliment, but from what I can tell they are more "comfortable" than most other types (the Galaxy class was designed, at least in theory, to split in "half" and use the saucer section to get the civilians "out of Dodge" while the Stardrive section did battle). Escorts on the other hand are supposed to be built for getting into the fight, kicking butt, and getting out. The Defiant was built to take on the Borg and was repurposed to basically take on the threat posed by the Dominion pretty much singlehandedly and the Prometheus took on (if I remember right) 2 D'deridex-class Romulan warbirds (supposedly a match for a Galaxy class) AND, if only briefly, and Akira and 2 Defiants. Based on what we see of the Defiant and to a lesser extent the Prometheus, they are rather "Spartan" and basically are designed for nothing more than combat. As such, I would assume they should have more weapons slots than a cruiser, why do they not?
Lt. Commander
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The key to remember about escorts is that, for the most part, they are small. Very small usually. They simply don't have the sheer "beef" that cruisers do. Smaller ship means smaller warp core and smaller fusion generators. They just don't have the power to run all the things a Cruiser can, this includes holidecks, racketball courts, fancy furnishings from the replicater, and yes, even wepons.

Now, it should be noted that escorts can carry cannons. Lots of cannons. If you fully outfit your ship with duel cannons, that theoretically means 8 forward facing wepons on a tier 5 ship. The best a cruiser can muster is 4. And escourts are like half to a quarter the size! Escourts are fully capable of taking on cruisers despite their much smaller size because they are hard to hit and hit back with a vengence.

I guess my real response is that pound for pound, Escorts DO have more wepons than cruisers.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 3
11-07-2011, 05:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor-Man
I guess my real response is that pound for pound, Escorts DO have more wepons than cruisers.
Not true. I can 1-shot any escort, and 2-shot any cruiser.

It is rare any PvP opponent survives longer than 5 seconds from the time I decloak.

In a cruiser.

I don't know a single escort in the game that can do that.

No Defiant, MVAM, etc in the game can do the same to me.

"Pound for pound", it depends ENTIRELY on the build and captain, NOT the ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 4
11-07-2011, 08:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakaishin
Not true. I can 1-shot any escort, and 2-shot any cruiser.

It is rare any PvP opponent survives longer than 5 seconds from the time I decloak.

In a cruiser.

I don't know a single escort in the game that can do that.

No Defiant, MVAM, etc in the game can do the same to me.

"Pound for pound", it depends ENTIRELY on the build and captain, NOT the ship.
What time do you normally play (I am from east coast USA)? When you say pvp, is that arena or ch?


I have never been 1 shot by a crusier before.

Edit, I see your in the 12th fleet, to my knowledge that's not a pvp fleet. Anyhow, if I do see you I will give you some attention.
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# 5
11-08-2011, 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimsonoa View Post
... When you say pvp, is that arena or ch?...
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...8&postcount=51

This could answer ur question.
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# 6
11-08-2011, 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimsonoa View Post
What time do you normally play (I am from east coast USA)? When you say pvp, is that arena or ch?


I have never been 1 shot by a crusier before.

Edit, I see your in the 12th fleet, to my knowledge that's not a pvp fleet. Anyhow, if I do see you I will give you some attention.
After work, normally 5pm CST to whatever time I get bored.

Yes, that is the effect most have, because most cruiser pilots suck.

12th Fleet is made up of nearly 500 people, and separated into divisions based on specialty/interest in the game.

12th Fleet Tactical Division = 12th's PvP gurus.

Not to say the other divisions don't PvP at all, we just do it more frequently as a general rule of thumb.

P.S: Being 1 shot by a Venture-X is uncommon. Being 1 shot by a Tactical Venture-X is expected.

With all available buffs primed, my lance will burst for 300% damage. Against Escorts, this normally equates to approximately 30k per burst (2x bursts - though I have seen my lance crit hit as hard as 56k in a burst in PvP).
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# 7
11-09-2011, 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nor-Man
The key to remember about escorts is that, for the most part, they are small. Very small usually. They simply don't have the sheer "beef" that cruisers do. Smaller ship means smaller warp core and smaller fusion generators. They just don't have the power to run all the things a Cruiser can, this includes holidecks, racketball courts, fancy furnishings from the replicater, and yes, even wepons.

Now, it should be noted that escorts can carry cannons. Lots of cannons. If you fully outfit your ship with duel cannons, that theoretically means 8 forward facing wepons on a tier 5 ship. The best a cruiser can muster is 4. And escourts are like half to a quarter the size! Escourts are fully capable of taking on cruisers despite their much smaller size because they are hard to hit and hit back with a vengence.

I guess my real response is that pound for pound, Escorts DO have more wepons than cruisers.
I kinda see where you are going, BUT, the Federation officially has no "Warships" (the Defiant comes closest and is officially an Escort). The Defiant, as I said, was an Escort, the Akira is classified as a Heavy Cruiser and the Prometheus is not given a type other than technology testbed. As the Defiant is the only real "combat vessel" the Federation has (at least that we get the chance to know much about) it is what we have to use to determine what we can about "Escorts". Yes, they are typically much smaller than a Cruiser but they are designed from the bottom up for nothing but combat so they don't get the resource draining amenities that Cruisers do such as Holodecks, diplomatic quarters, families, research facilities, ect, it is designed for combat and combat only. The warp core of the Defiant, while small, was very powerful for it's size (again, they knew they were going to be powering lots of combat systems, and knew what that kind of power drain that would cause) and as a result the Defiant has a warp signature equal to a much larger starship.

Let me put it this way, cruiseliners are much larger than a destroyer and have a much larger powerplant, and they can be used in combat as was done in World War I and World War II. Being larger they "could" mount more weapons and hold more ammunition and therefore should have, in theory, been a much bigger threat than a destroyer. The problem is, destroyers were built for combat so their systems worked effectively together, the internal layout was specifically designed to be efficient for combat situations (munition storage was located centrally as far from potential areas of damage as possible to avoid cascading explosions if the ship was hit, but there were established corridors and routes to get the munitions to the proper weapons and the crews were trained extensively in that) while converted cruiseliners had to deal with the majority of the internal space being originally used as passenger quarters and entertainment areas. (As an aside) I'm not sure how many here have been on a cruse ship AND a warship (be it aircraft carrier, battleship, ect) for those that haven't (and maybe the benefit of those that have) I'll briefly describe it. Cruise ships are very simply laid out and very straightforward, typically there are two (maybe more depending upon the width) hallways down each deck with stairways at the fore and aft (and typically around midship as well. That is so people don't get lost and to maximize the number of people that can be onboard. Warships are very different. To most it may appear it is a maze, to go from a room on the port side of the 3rd deck to one on the starboard side of the 4th deck you may have to go up two decks, down a hall to the aft, cross to the starboard side, go down one deck, take another hall heading to the fore of the ship, pass back to the port, down a deck, cross back to starboard, head to the fore of the ship again, down 2 more decks, and go back to the aft. While that may seem to be much less efficient, what it is designed to do is make the paths needed to be taken under battle conditions (particularly from munitions storage to the guns) very efficient and make it where you don't have large groups of people running down stairs that others are trying to get munitions up. It also reinforces the inside of the ship more since you don't have convenient straight lines for energy to pass through. If you haven't seen what happens to glass then it is hit several times I've attached a picture. The impact in the lower left of the picture was from the second bullet strike, you can tell this especially along the lower right of the main crack pattern for that bullet because all of the cracks in that direction were stopped by the existing crack from the first shot. the maze like pattern of bulkheads in a warship limit the transfer of energy from explosions down the ship, for instance, if a cruise ship had an explosion in the aft of the ship everyone on board would know it pretty much instantly and depending on how powerful it was would possibly even get hurt on the bow where as if a torpedo or bomb hits in the aft of a warship and you are sleeping, even near midship (again depending on the size of both the explosion and ship itself) the sound may wake you but if not the alarms would be what did, not the shaking from the impact.

Even the thought about Cruisers having more hull strength than Escorts because they are bigger makes no sense either again since Escorts are specifically designed for combat (the main thing you need hull strength for). A bus is bigger than a tank, but you aren't going to find any buses that have more armor than a tank. Never once do they mention armor on the Enterprise, but the Defiant is specifically mentioned as being armored (ablative armor) which, by default, makes the hull strength stronger. Going back to my cruise ship vs destroyer scenario, many warships, especially now days, have a double hull so that if the outer hull is breached the inner hull still gives added protection. I'm not sure if anyone saw what had to be done to get the Aircraft Carrier U.S.S. Oriskany to sink (when they turned it into a reef) but they had to destroy a lot of the safety designs designed into the hull which took months of skilled labor to do. Even in Pearl Harbor 6 of the 8 Battleships that were damaged or sunk were repaired and returned to service in the war, had a cruise liner taken the damage those battleships did I dare say there would be nothing left of it.

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/n...00_468x286.jpg

Star Trek Online seems to forget the fact that the Federation doesn't really have many warships other than escorts and treat the Federation like the Klingons (whose ships are ALL warships but may have a secondary function like science). How many Klingon ships do you see with families onboard, holodecks, replicators in every room, hydroponics bays, daycares, ect?
Lt. Commander
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# 8
11-09-2011, 12:14 PM
wall of text crits you for 9,001 damage.
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# 9
11-09-2011, 12:46 PM
Dreadnought is a warship. Pure and simple.

The hull of the ship wasn't built around such a powerful weapon as the lance so it could be used to mine ore. The cloaking device wasn't added to orbit a planet for observation.
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# 10
11-09-2011, 01:14 PM
The Dreadnaught is a cruiser with a big gun grafted to it, it was not designed from the ground up with the expectation of being a combat ship. That would be like me grafting a 120 mm cannon on a school bus and calling it a vehicle meant for combat. As for the cloaking device, the Enterprise (NCC-1701 no bloody A, B, C, or D) had one briefly, Enterprise D had one, an Oberth class had one, Romulan science vessels have them, it doesn't mean they are designed from the ground up to be combat vessels.

My point, and it has been made even by those arguing semantics on here, is that there is absolutely no reason anyone should EVER use an Escort in Star Trek Online. There is Absolutely no point to them. One on one, assuming players are evenly matched with tear, skill, and rank, a Cruiser will ALWAYS beat an Escort, 5 Cruisers will Always beat 5 Escorts, 5 Cruisers will Always beat 2 Cruisers and 3 Escorts. This is the only MMO I know of where there is one "class" in the game (in this case Escorts) that is completely and utterly worthless and put in merely to take up space and one "class" that can't be beaten except by others of that class.

It might be different if the speed and maneuverability of escorts actually offset their weaknesses or if the lack of speed and maneuverability of cruisers was actually a drawback in any appreciable way, but it isn't. Let me put it to you another way, If you are getting together a 5 ship fleet (5 ships is the max you can use) to take on, say the Borg and you have 15 players of equal skill with 5 of them being Science Vessels, 5 of them being Escorts, and 5 of them being Cruisers, and you want the best possible chance of winning, will you chose any of the players with escorts?
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