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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-11-2011, 12:12 PM
I think you guys maybe over-analyze this stuff a little too much.

The probable real reason the Borg invaded where they did? Easier for Cryptic to produce the art assets based on the Def. city from the FE than it was to make up an entire architectural style and planet for the Gorn, who were the originally stated victims of the invasion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-11-2011, 06:01 PM
cryptic this is my plea to you please stop the invasion of defera and have the borg attack the romulans, that would be awesome. please cryptic make the borg logical.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-11-2011, 06:57 PM
This attack is logical...

+
Deferi ships arnt advance enough to take on the breen, let alone the borg.
Defera holds the secrets to the Preservers
3.8 billion deferi on defera.. so if their after bodies.. they'll get a few million
If they win then they can take on the feds,spoon heads,KDF and the Breen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-11-2011, 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralBlack10 View Post
which is far from the territories they have already conquered?
Not as far as the RSE, which would either involve crossing the entire Federation (despite the awkward map placing, events in TOS and DS9 suggest that canon Gamma Orionis systems like Cestus would be near the "south" end of the quadrants, in spitting distance of Breen or Cardassian space, and thus Defera) or crossing in from the Delta Quadrant. Regardless of distance, the Borg have proven decisively that their travel capabilities allow them to strike at will anywhere throughout the Alpha or Beta quadrants. Orellius is no more inconvenient for them than anywhere.

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Second of all why do the Borg need this perserver technology?
You mention logic several times, but here's the thing: The Borg typically do not act out of pure logic. They act very often from something much more akin to religious dogma - doing very illogical and wasteful things because of their overriding goals. Those overriding goals are the assimilation of new technology, biology, and what is often overlooked, energy sources (such as Omega). It's not about needing those things - they certainly don't seem to need the unlimited energy that Omega offers. They just WANT it, and they're perfectly willing to throw away more than they will ever get back. Like I said, dogma, not logic. The Preservers were masters of biology, with intimate knowledge of most of the races in the galaxy, and possessed technology beyond any of the Alpha or Beta Quadrant powers. They are the very embodiment of what the Borg desire most.


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there ships and armies are already more than capable of adapting to all the major powers technology.
This does not seem to be the case anymore. What was learned about them from TNG to Voyager and beyond as well as the technological explosion seen in that timeframe seems to have left them at a severe disadvantage. Both factions have strong success in removing drones and other technology from the collective, and both have tallied up many major military victories against the Borg.


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Third of all I think the Borg would more than likely invade the romulans territory, I say this for several reasons 1. The romulan empire is in massive disarray making it extremely vulnerable to invasion. 2. If they can conquer the Romulans territory it makes a great springboard for conquering all the core worlds of the federation.
Despite their disarray, the Romulans also appear to have successful programs for liberating Borg technology and drones. Perhaps less successful than the Federation or KDF, but they still have notable successes. They also have powerful allies in the Iconians. Allies which the Borg know about - we've already seen the Iconians attack the Borg in retaliation for a Borg attack on the Romulans.

Defera is just as good of a springboard for invasion as Romulus because the Borg don't need a springboard. They've shown they can strike anywhere in Federation, Klingon, Cardassian, or Romulan space at will. And they've met defeat in every one of those theaters.



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I feel honestly that this invasion makes no tactical sense what so ever and I dont feel the Borg would carry out a large scale invasion of defera, they may have sent a small force to gather and assimilate the persevers technology also I would like to point out that the Deferi are a very weak race technologically and the Borg do not need a large force to conquer and assimlate the deferi
The Borg also met defeat in their invasion of Orelius. The Deferi also have powerful allies that the Borg know about. They already know any attempt to assimilate Defera will have to contend with the combined Klingon and Federation response.

But weigh that against Romulus, where any attempt will likely have to contend with those forces anyway in addition to the Romulans themselves (which despite their disarray have still shown themselves a force to be reckoned with), and the Romulan's Iconian allies. Allies that have proven themselves immensely superior to the Borg.

If you want to talk about logic and tactics, you need to consider all the forces in the quadrant that the Borg know about. The Federation isn't the jeweled prize - the Iconians are. They don't need a springboard into Federation territory, they need a springboard into Romulan territory. They don't need preserver technology to gain an advantage over the Federation, they need it to stand a snowball's chance against the Iconians.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-12-2011, 08:42 AM
Not as far as the RSE, which would either involve crossing the entire Federation (despite the awkward map placing, events in TOS and DS9 suggest that canon Gamma Orionis systems like Cestus would be near the "south" end of the quadrants, in spitting distance of Breen or Cardassian space, and thus Defera) or crossing in from the Delta Quadrant. Regardless of distance, the Borg have proven decisively that their travel capabilities allow them to strike at will anywhere throughout the Alpha or Beta quadrants. Orellius is no more inconvenient for them than anywhere.

Its not about convience its about logic, lets not forget if they just want the perserver technology why invest forces in occupying the planet, the deferi are no match for the borg one cube could easily assimilate all of the deferi and defera, and from there they could just take the techbnology it makes no sense for the borg to invest reosurces in occupying the planet and lets not forget those reousrces could be better spent else where.



You mention logic several times, but here's the thing: The Borg typically do not act out of pure logic. They act very often from something much more akin to religious dogma - doing very illogical and wasteful things because of their overriding goals. Those overriding goals are the assimilation of new technology, biology, and what is often overlooked, energy sources (such as Omega). It's not about needing those things - they certainly don't seem to need the unlimited energy that Omega offers. They just WANT it, and they're perfectly willing to throw away more than they will ever get back. Like I said, dogma, not logic. The Preservers were masters of biology, with intimate knowledge of most of the races in the galaxy, and possessed technology beyond any of the Alpha or Beta Quadrant powers. They are the very embodiment of what the Borg desire most.

I disagree with this statement the borg are ruled by logic there main goal is perfection, assimilating technologies helps them acheive this goal, also they have this drive thanks to there origins and the v'ger probe.



This does not seem to be the case anymore. What was learned about them from TNG to Voyager and beyond as well as the technological explosion seen in that timeframe seems to have left them at a severe disadvantage. Both factions have strong success in removing drones and other technology from the collective, and both have tallied up many major military victories against the Borg.

All sides have seen many major defeats especially with this all out assault on all the major powers.



Despite their disarray, the Romulans also appear to have successful programs for liberating Borg technology and drones. Perhaps less successful than the Federation or KDF, but they still have notable successes. They also have powerful allies in the Iconians. Allies which the Borg know about - we've already seen the Iconians attack the Borg in retaliation for a Borg attack on the Romulans.

when did we see this?

Defera is just as good of a springboard for invasion as Romulus because the Borg don't need a springboard. They've shown they can strike anywhere in Federation, Klingon, Cardassian, or Romulan space at will. And they've met defeat in every one of those theaters.

No its not defera is no where near romulan territory and if they could strike anywhere and easily defeat there enemies they already would have done so.





The Borg also met defeat in their invasion of Orelius. The Deferi also have powerful allies that the Borg know about. They already know any attempt to assimilate Defera will have to contend with the combined Klingon and Federation response.

when did they meet defeat and how i certiantly havent heard of them meeting defeat.

But weigh that against Romulus, where any attempt will likely have to contend with those forces anyway in addition to the Romulans themselves (which despite their disarray have still shown themselves a force to be reckoned with), and the Romulan's Iconian allies. Allies that have proven themselves immensely superior to the Borg

we do not know the extent of the relationship between the romulans and the iconians, we dont even know if they would support them militarly infact we know very little about the iconians or there technology

If you want to talk about logic and tactics, you need to consider all the forces in the quadrant that the Borg know about. The Federation isn't the jeweled prize - the Iconians are. They don't need a springboard into Federation territory, they need a springboard into Romulan territory. They don't need preserver technology to gain an advantage over the Federation, they need it to stand a snowball's chance against the Iconians.

You have no evidence of the Borg being threatened by the iconians or them wanting to persever technology to fight the iconians for all you or anyone else knows the borg may want the federation and you dont know if borg technology would be effective or ineffective against the iconians the borg can adapt very well and very quicklly and if they just wanted the perserver technology why go after key federation and klingon worlds and attack both the federation and the klingons,why not just go after the technology that seems much more effiecent.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-12-2011, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralBlack10 View Post
Its not about convience its about logic, lets not forget if they just want the perserver technology why invest forces in occupying the planet, the deferi are no match for the borg one cube could easily assimilate all of the deferi and defera, and from there they could just take the techbnology it makes no sense for the borg to invest reosurces in occupying the planet and lets not forget those reousrces could be better spent else where.
A single cube? Command ships with their attendant fleets have already been repelled by Federation and Klingon forces in Deferi space. One cube would be a day off for defenders.


Quote:
I disagree with this statement the borg are ruled by logic there main goal is perfection, assimilating technologies helps them acheive this goal, also they have this drive thanks to there origins and the v'ger probe.
Let's think about the logic for a moment. The Borg have one way to deal with a new thing: Try to assimilate it. If they fail, they have one response: Try more. When met with defeat they continue to try to assimilate it regardless of the cost. They threw away fleets in a failed attempt to assimilate the Undine, allowed Voyager to rampage through their most important facilities, and even when they had adapted to the armor and were about to destroy it, they instead tried and failed to assimilate it at extreme risk.

You're right on one point here, they are ruled by their quest for perfection, and that in itself is already illogical. The ways they pursue that quest are even more illogical - they do not learn, develop, create, or innovate, only assimilate, inherently limiting themselves to a lower state of perfection than the galaxy around them.

Quote:
All sides have seen many major defeats especially with this all out assault on all the major powers.
Not major defeats. No central world in any of the major powers have been invaded since the failed invasion of Vega. A handful of colonies and one starbase were assimilated, and those have been liberated or had their assimilated inhabitants eliminated.

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when did we see this?
The Return.


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No its not defera is no where near romulan territory and if they could strike anywhere and easily defeat there enemies they already would have done so.
Specifically my point. They can strike anywhere, and have been doing so throughout the first phase of the invasion. They cannot defeat their enemies when they do, however, as not a single world has fallen outside of Gamma Orionis.


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when did they meet defeat and how i certiantly havent heard of them meeting defeat.
This ground assault is phase two in the Borg Invasion arc. Phase one was the space invasion. Despite using ten command ships and having their most aggressive attacks in Orelius, they've failed to assimilate a single world.

Quote:
we do not know the extent of the relationship between the romulans and the iconians, we dont even know if they would support them militarly infact we know very little about the iconians or there technology
We do know the bottom limit of that extent, however. The Tal'shiar are outright puppets of the Iconians, even their commanders speak of them with almost religious reverence. We know their connection with the Empress's faction is sufficient to warrant military intervention when Sela's ship was under attack. We know they will support the Romulans militarily, they've done so three times, most relevantly once against the Borg.


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You have no evidence of the Borg being threatened by the iconians
Again. The Return.

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or them wanting to persever technology to fight the iconians for all you or anyone else knows the borg may want the federation and you dont know if borg technology would be effective or ineffective against the iconians the borg can adapt very well and very quicklly
The Borg's ability to adapt has been almost fully overcome - they have been consistently failing to adapt while fighting Federation, Klingon, or Romulan forces. And again, going back to The Return, the Iconian ship was easily capable of making Voyager's last rampage look tame, able to completely shut down every power system on a Borg cube and destroy it with a single beam weapon.

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and if they just wanted the perserver technology why go after key federation and klingon worlds and attack both the federation and the klingons,why not just go after the technology that seems much more effiecent.
If they know about the technology anyway. The Borg only know about a thing after assimilating somebody who already learned it. They don't have historians, scientists, explorers, or even engineers. And aside from the Deferi, until recently nobody else knew about the Preserver technology either, giving no likely way the Borg could have obtained knowledge of its presence.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-12-2011, 12:16 PM
The Borg have already figured a direct attack on Earth is futile especially with the apparent thousands of ships there so they have switched to a tactical assault.

Defera is at the furthest point from the true targets of the attack so any defenders who are sent there to repel the Borg will be on a stretched supply line and this potentially weakened to a degree.

An attack on a system closer to the core worlds would leave the Borg open to a more sustained sustained attack over multiple fronts. This would mean far more ships would be needed for any invasion attempt.

I fully endorse the choice of Defera for the Borg to invade. Also lets face it everybody loves to kill Defari so why shouldnt the Borg?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-13-2011, 06:15 AM
Cryptic were lazy and needed an area that both factions could get too to take part. The alternative was to put the ground map somewhere in the PVP area, or STF zone. Personnally, I would have put it in the PVP zone... Otha could certainly use love to make it a decent ground map to play rather than an abortion Cryptic have neglected.

Although I suspect Cryptic will come out with more of these areas all over the place EVENTUALLY. They most likely made if Deferii because it gets folks back in that side of the map AND sets folks up for the Season 4 series... supposedly going to be set around DS9.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-13-2011, 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
If they know about the technology anyway. The Borg only know about a thing after assimilating somebody who already learned it. They don't have historians, scientists, explorers, or even engineers. And aside from the Deferi, until recently nobody else knew about the Preserver technology either, giving no likely way the Borg could have obtained knowledge of its presence.
Did not the Tal Shiar listening post in the Hilfar system have highly detailed information on the events occuring in Klingon, Cardassian, and Federation Space? Is it not possible that the Romulans may have a hidden presence in Defari/Breen Space? (Good opportunity for more PvE missions!) Could it be possible that a courier(from ANY faction to include the RSE) with information on the Preservers just happened to be assimilated by the Borg sometime after the events in "The Cure"?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-13-2011, 08:02 PM
The borg should have just gona after the Breen, they have preserver knowledge too. And on a whole would be a more useful species to assimilate. The Deferi have nothing to offer the Borg upon assimilation except to lower their defenses and turn the borg into wimps :p
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