Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Skills Revamp Feedback
11-12-2011, 10:05 PM
I have been spending a fair number of test points on respecing my main on Tribble. I have lost count of how many times I have done this, but it has been more than a few. The point of this is that I am trying to find a new build that will get me close to what I have on live. I have read the math posts etc, and frankly they lose me, I'm not a math person, except for simple stuff...like subtraction.

Let's look at some simple mathematics:
Live server: Bonus to Defense 60%; Tribble, variations from 40-56.1%. Loss of 3.9-20%
Live Server: Bonus Accuracy 15%; Tribble 11-14.5%. Loss of .5-4%
Live Server: Critical Chance 5.4%; Tribble 3.4%. Loss of 2%
Live server: Critical Severity 84.2%; Tribble 59.1%. Loss of 25.1%

I can make it match up from tribble to holodeck for things like hull hp, shields hp, resistances etc. Sadly, in order to match my space skills between the two, I've had to make some significant sacrifices in my ground skills. Goodbye Science Team, Engineering Team, Tactical Team training. So long Tiers 2-5 in any ground skills.

Cryptic, you have been kind enough to lower the "price" of a respec token, but with a massive change like this, respecs should be free (unlimited) on Tribble for the duration of the testing. Why make us jump through hoops when it isn't necessary. Especially when you admit yourselves that this isn't finalized and we are going to have to respec again and again while you iterate new versions of this unbalanced skill tree.

Finally, please, if you only answer one question for me, answer me this: Why on earth would you even consider releasing a half finished skill system, especially when you are attempting to bring in a large influx of new players by going F2P? You claim that Atari rushed you to release STO before it was ready, and it showed in the lack of content and the less than polished gameplay, not to mention all the wrongs done to the KDF. Now here you are with an opportunity to show us that you can do it right and not rush something into production before it is ready, and it appears you will fail yet again.

I'm a lifer so I'll probably take a break again while you sort out this mess. We, your player base, played an unfinished and unpolished game before, and I really hope you aren't about to make the same mistake again with this new skills system.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-12-2011, 10:35 PM
We all will be in the same boat with you on this skill tree. I honestly cant understand why Cryptic has'nt thought about a max limit skills for space and ground. Say the max for space is 74,500 and 50-60 thousand for ground. Sounds simple to me. I'm guilty of puting all my points into space in order to survive PvP. If cryptic tried leveling their point say 70% space and 30% ground they would get own. TSI would hand their rear/butt and then some. All of my toons have nothing but points towards space..... all 16 of them. If not I'll get crushed real quick in PvP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
First let me nip some responses in the bud...YES I KNOW this is a game. But there is a difference between suspension of disbelief for fantasy/imaginary elements of the game and ignoring logic, reason, and knowledge of elements of the game.

So STO did it with the new skill system gave in to all the players who were crying about "My captain can't fly every type of every ship at maximum level and effectiveness". "I cant max level every skill."

The new skill system has two major faults

1)with the ship abilities in space: that essentially all the ships regardless of type, function and design are all actually the same and people "captaining" them would be equally good at them all. This is like saying because you got your drivers license you could also drive a bus, a tractor trailer, or a formula 1 race car as well as you drive your civic. This is simply illogical and completely false. Yes the basic principles for driving all the vehicles are the same. But to truly excel at driving each/any of them would take knowledge and experience and time learning about that specific vehicle. Someone who has a pilots license for flying normal civilian aircraft, like Cessna and Piper Cubs, is not automatically an expert pilot of commercial airliners or fighter jets. Again it would require specific knowledge, training, and experience with each type of aircraft.(indeed the FAA requires separate certifications for some dozen different types of aircraft.) The reason is simple the all the different types of vehicles are designed differently for different purposes and using different unique systems that are not all equal one to the other.

2)with the new space abilities, it seems that the skills are now simply lumped together based on their intended effect; and here again, all skills are assumed to be the same and one equivalent to any and all others. Simply preposterous. For instance, if your goal is to make a fire, just because you can strike a match, or flic your Bic does not mean you are equally capable of starting a fire using any known method (like using a fire bow, or flint and steel, or a battery and some steel wool.) The procedures and methodologies are vastly different and proficiency with one method does not grant proficiency in any other method; let alone them all.

A more specific game example: the new flow capacitors skill. Which now covers both shield drain abilities and energy drain abilities, in and of themselves two completely different systems but anyway...lets look at draining power from a ship. There are probably dozens of ways to drain power from an "electrical" system. One might be able to surround that system with an ion cloud of oppositely charged particles which would attract the particles in the system to bond with them thereby removing them from the system...or maybe a simple strong magnetic field of opposite polarity would be sufficient...or maybe simply increasing the resistance of the components of the system itself so that more energy is actually lost as it moves through the system would work...or...well you can see there are several different methods that might work and the procedures, methodologies, knowledge, and skill to create one of these effects does not mean you know the procedures and methodologies, or have the knowledge and skill to implement the others.

In short there is nothing wrong with not being able to know and do EVERYTHING! There is nothing wrong with having to make choices...or make sacrifices in one area to improve in another...we all do it everyday already.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-13-2011, 08:56 AM
Does anyone think that a more limited set of skills will impact one ship type more than another? I have not really looked at the math and it has been a very long time since I ventured in to PvP.

My thought is that with no skill points spent, a Cruiser would be the best ship by far and Escort or Science would end up dead last, nowhere near as good as a Cruiser. While spending skill points, Escort and Science probably see some significant benefits for things like Defense or special abilities.

Is there a sort of equilibrium point? Below 50 skill points Cruisers are numerically and practically superior, above 50 points things even out?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-13-2011, 09:34 AM
Ok, so I'm going to eat my words...took me 2 more respecs but I think I've gotten as close as I'm going to get. I lost about 1000 Hull HP, my Crit Chance and Severity are still way below where they were (I don't see any skills that boost them) and my bonus accuracy has dropped 3% (I could boost it I suppose). On the upside, I got all my ground skills back, within 1 or 2 points of where they were, and I've increased my overall damage output. I'm sure with a little more tweaking I could match up more of the skils numbers.

How did I do this? I realized that what was sinking me was wanting to be able to train my BOFFS. In order to train you need to max out the skills. Once I stopped doing this, and spent the points I needed for it to be effective, it all started to work. Most of my skills are 7's, with a couple 5's and 6's, a few 8's and only three 9's. I'll post up my engineering build a little later so you can see what I have done.

While I am a bit happier now that I have found a way to get the balance I was looking for, I still want to know why only half the skills have been looked at. This still seems like it is a foolhardy idea, pushing out a skill system that is only half done.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-13-2011, 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb_Stone
Ok, so I'm going to eat my words...took me 2 more respecs but I think I've gotten as close as I'm going to get. I lost about 1000 Hull HP, my Crit Chance and Severity are still way below where they were (I don't see any skills that boost them) and my bonus accuracy has dropped 3% (I could boost it I suppose). On the upside, I got all my ground skills back, within 1 or 2 points of where they were, and I've increased my overall damage output. I'm sure with a little more tweaking I could match up more of the skils numbers.

How did I do this? I realized that what was sinking me was wanting to be able to train my BOFFS. In order to train you need to max out the skills. Once I stopped doing this, and spent the points I needed for it to be effective, it all started to work. Most of my skills are 7's, with a couple 5's and 6's, a few 8's and only three 9's. I'll post up my engineering build a little later so you can see what I have done.

While I am a bit happier now that I have found a way to get the balance I was looking for, I still want to know why only half the skills have been looked at. This still seems like it is a foolhardy idea, pushing out a skill system that is only half done.
I think that's the problem a lot of people are having, and I know I did the same thing with wanting to max out my 9's so I could train BOFF skills. When these changes go live I think I'm going to keep a couple of toon with a lot of 9's and they will be my trainers, and then the remaining toons will be using a lot more 5-7's. These will be my PVP toons.
As for the system being unfinished, I would love to see exactly what they have planned for the ground skill split. I know they wanted us to test it out but since it's not the final product it's kind of hard to give proper feedback.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-13-2011, 10:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsilonStation
First let me nip some responses in the bud...YES I KNOW this is a game. But there is a difference between suspension of disbelief for fantasy/imaginary elements of the game and ignoring logic, reason, and knowledge of elements of the game.
Are you sure you know this is a game?

1) It's not only a game, it is a game based on a fictional universe, that has primarily appeared on TV and Movie screens. The rules it follows are narrative. If someone is a hot shot pilot named Tom Paris, it doesn't matter if you put him in a Delta Flyer or a Intrepid Class Cruiser, he'll still fly it awesomely.

2) Have you watched what the Captains are actually doing when they command their starships? Sitting in their chairs, ordering others aroun?

How much does it look to you like what a Pilot or a Driver is doing?
Comparing the Captain of a starship to a bus driver is highly questionable. Whatever parallels you are drawing ... I am afraid they actually meet each other before reaching infinity.

As a Captain, I do not fly on manual control with a joystick most of the time. I give orders. I can give orders regardless of whether I sit in a Galaxy Class ship or a Stargazer ship, just like how Captain Picard did before me.

3) In the real world, we don't suddenly stop learning because we reach some kind of skill cap. We keep doing it. There is no reason I should have to "forget" about flying an Escort before I can fly a Cruiser normally. But for game reasons, we have a skill cap, so we have to make meaningful "game" choices. But once you have decided which ship you want to fly - well, there is no point in reeinforicing that choice by spending skill points just for that ship. It's a superflous restrictions. Maybe a good idea if you want to sell Respecs, but that's it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-14-2011, 11:19 AM
Ok, so here is my quick and dirty balanced engineer in an assault cruiser. This is what worked for me, I leave you all to figure out how to make it work for yourselves.
Tactical Skills:
Starship Weapons Training 9
Starship energy Weapons 8
Starship Projectile Weapons 9
Starship Maneuvers 8
Targetting 8
Energy Weapons Specialization 8
Projectile Weapons Specialization 5

Engineering Skills:
Hull Repair 7
Structural Integrity 9
Warp Core Efficiency 9
Warp Core Potential 9
Hull Plating 8
Armor 6
Impulse Engines 7
Engine Performance 7
Shield Performance 7
Weapons Performance 7

Science Skills:
Shield Emitters 9
Shield Systems 9

Ground Skills:
Modification Training 9
Technician 7
Personal Shields 7
Science Team Leader 7
Tactical Team Leader 7
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-14-2011, 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UpsilonStation
First let me nip some responses in the bud...YES I KNOW this is a game. But there is a difference between suspension of disbelief for fantasy/imaginary elements of the game and ignoring logic, reason, and knowledge of elements of the game.

So STO did it with the new skill system gave in to all the players who were crying about "My captain can't fly every type of every ship at maximum level and effectiveness". "I cant max level every skill."

The new skill system has two major faults

1)with the ship abilities in space: that essentially all the ships regardless of type, function and design are all actually the same and people "captaining" them would be equally good at them all. This is like saying because you got your drivers license you could also drive a bus, a tractor trailer, or a formula 1 race car as well as you drive your civic. This is simply illogical and completely false. Yes the basic principles for driving all the vehicles are the same. But to truly excel at driving each/any of them would take knowledge and experience and time learning about that specific vehicle. Someone who has a pilots license for flying normal civilian aircraft, like Cessna and Piper Cubs, is not automatically an expert pilot of commercial airliners or fighter jets. Again it would require specific knowledge, training, and experience with each type of aircraft.(indeed the FAA requires separate certifications for some dozen different types of aircraft.) The reason is simple the all the different types of vehicles are designed differently for different purposes and using different unique systems that are not all equal one to the other.

2)with the new space abilities, it seems that the skills are now simply lumped together based on their intended effect; and here again, all skills are assumed to be the same and one equivalent to any and all others. Simply preposterous. For instance, if your goal is to make a fire, just because you can strike a match, or flic your Bic does not mean you are equally capable of starting a fire using any known method (like using a fire bow, or flint and steel, or a battery and some steel wool.) The procedures and methodologies are vastly different and proficiency with one method does not grant proficiency in any other method; let alone them all.

A more specific game example: the new flow capacitors skill. Which now covers both shield drain abilities and energy drain abilities, in and of themselves two completely different systems but anyway...lets look at draining power from a ship. There are probably dozens of ways to drain power from an "electrical" system. One might be able to surround that system with an ion cloud of oppositely charged particles which would attract the particles in the system to bond with them thereby removing them from the system...or maybe a simple strong magnetic field of opposite polarity would be sufficient...or maybe simply increasing the resistance of the components of the system itself so that more energy is actually lost as it moves through the system would work...or...well you can see there are several different methods that might work and the procedures, methodologies, knowledge, and skill to create one of these effects does not mean you know the procedures and methodologies, or have the knowledge and skill to implement the others.

In short there is nothing wrong with not being able to know and do EVERYTHING! There is nothing wrong with having to make choices...or make sacrifices in one area to improve in another...we all do it everyday already.
First, YOU aren't flying the ship. You are giving orders to fly the ship. There is a vast difference in this and your example. Your example is true, just because you can drive a civic doesn't mean you can drive a bus. However, your example doesn't apply to STO because you are simply giving the orders to fly the ship. You aren't physically doing the work.

It's all computer based, and you only need someone trained to put the info into the computer. A captain can command any ship. The only part of your example that could apply would be the experience of that ship. Meaning, I can give orders to the Akira crew, but that doesn't mean I am aware of the Akira's weakness or strong points in comparison to the Intrepid I was just in command of.

Still, that is why you have a crew, to cover what you don't know.

2.Shields are energy based. The principle of draining shields is the same of draining energy from the ship itself. In order to drain shield you are basically just taking power away from that system, and since all the ships system get their power from the same source...what changes when you drain from weapons instead?

Nothing really. If you have a battery powering your flashlight and your radio, draining power from the battery to shut off the radio is not going to be any different than draining it to shut off the light. Only difference is where you are targeting the drain.

Lastly, it's not about being able to do everything. It's about cost of choice.

Some of us have been playing the game since beta. As such, we may grow tired of flying the same old ship that we have for months. Also, they release new ships over time that we may decide to try out.

The issue is that we can't easily jump into another ship and fly because we have to spend a respec to do so. A costly respec no less. The ships built by the Federation are modular. This means many of them share components. Each ship has it's own specialized sections, but they are all essentially the same.

It is perfectly likely that a Captain can go from Commanding a Galaxy to a Defiant and find little trouble with the transition. His crew is trained to run that ship, he is trained to give strategic orders and make tactical decisions. The Captain doesn't need to know exactly how to pilot or repair the ship. That is why he has his crew.

But even so, Federation ships are pretty universal, so it takes a short time to understand the minute differences between two ships.

We put an emphasis on Tactical or Engineeing or Science, and most ships are specialized in one type of function. However, a tactical trained Captain can easily command an Intredpid, even though it is a Science specilized ship. He leaves the Science part up to those better trained for it.

This is where players are having issues. We have to total rebuild our characters to fly a new ship. Weapons is also an issue, with certain weapon types costing more than other without being better than the others.

These are the things that were to be addressed with a new skill system. It's not final, yet, and there should be more changes coming. But YES, you should be able to command any ship and be fine, no matter your training. You have 1000 crew on that Galaxy for a reason, to do what you tell them to do.

As for the OP.

I think you are missing one point to the new system. You can't compare it to what you have on Holodeck. That is a different system. You have to compare it to other players using the Tribble system.

If you lost 1000 hull, others did too. So, the question is...how are you weaker? Maybe weaker than the old build on Holodeck, but not weaker than other players on Tribble. If you ARE weaker, that is what needs to be discussed.

We can't compare to Holodeck for balance. We have to compare within the same system.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-14-2011, 02:09 PM
It takes adapting too and it is certainly a little fudgy in some areas that need clarifing, but overall I like the new skill tree.

Though I do find it odd that with 3 of the weaponized skills at 7's I see no noticeble increase in any ships stats other than a small rise in DHC/DBB/TrT damage.
My Acc/CritH/CritS remain the same.
Thouigh my movement based bonus defense was very nicely boosted.
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