Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
11-11-2011, 07:21 PM
Yes it's a bit of a nerf. The biggest loss is the 6.7 Starship Operations Training which is worth just over 100 skill points, and that's largely a nerf for sci captains with less of an effect for eng and tac captains. I don't think it's a huge deal though, since the passive bonuses are small even on Holodeck. Hell my main is a joined Trill sci captain and I'm still not particularly bothered by this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
11-11-2011, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by sharkball View Post
Still... the joined trill get alot more bonus DPS than before...
So to test that I took a couple characters I have on Tribble and took a look at the difference.

MK XI white Dual Phaser Bank on VA Trill, fully specced in weapon training and energy weapons, 124 weapon power and no tac consoles.

@ 124 power 958 damage (766 DPS)

MK XI white Dual Disruptor bank on LTG Orion, fully specced in weapon training and energy weapons, 125 and 122 weapon power (close as I could get) and no tac consoles.

@ 125 power 945 damage (756 DPS)
@ 122 power 925 damage (740 DPS)

So yeah I'm not really seeing "alot more bonus DPS" with the only difference between the two characters being 1-2 points of power and the joined trill trait. You're looking at the equivalent of about 3 points of power difference. Is it nice? Sure, but it isn't a lot more.

Originally Posted by Naevius
People keep forgetting that the remaining skills affect more things AND that a +3 is the equivalent of a +6 under the old system.
I listed 31 abilities which the Trill trait affects on Holodeck. There are only 7 abilities the same trait now affects on Tribble, not counting the tactical abilities which didn't change. Seven is not greater than thirty-one. The tier 1 skills no longer affect every ability that pulls from the tree, they affect far less than they used to on Holodeck.

As for +3 = +6 that is not true at all. I have a hard time knowing what the real ratio is, since it appears to be very inconsistent, or at least they changed more variables than just the skills.

So let me illustrate this using a character without any traits affecting science skills.

On Tribble, CPB 3 with no ranks in particle generators, no deflector or consoles, gives me damage of 2584 @ 124 aux. Adding in my Borg deflector I get +15 to particle generators. This gives me 3182 damage.

Now fully speccing for particle generators I get +33, and no deflector gives me 3863 damage. Putting the deflector in gives me 4464 damage.

So that is with +48 total modifier, and the difference between skilled and unskilled is 1880.

Now on Redshirt, CPB 3 with no ranks in any science tree skill, and no deflector or consoles, CPB 3 gives me 2346 damage @124 aux. With the Borg deflector giving 33 sensors and puts aux at 125 power, I now get 2744 damage.

Fully specced for Starship operations, sensors, and astrometrics with no deflector I get 3519 damage @124 power. With borg deflector I get 3922 damage.

So we have a smaller difference of 1576, and a +133 skill modifier difference, and it also has a lower minimum.

What does that mean? It means if nothing else has changed (and I doubt it highly) the skill modifier difference is about 3.3 holodeck skill points = 1 tribble skill point. Problem is, that isn't quite accurate. CPB has a significantly higher potential on Tribble.

It also doesn't seem to be agreed on at all, afterall if someone says 3 on tribble = 6 on holodeck, thats 2:1 not 3.3:1. And when the damage values I posted earlier show a 5% increase compared to a 3.5% increase for the same value, that says it is more of a 1.4:1 ratio. It's really hard to figure out what is going on, or what is supposed to be going on when it doesn't seem to be consistent across all areas.

For another comparison, my Viral Matrix 3 on Holodeck gives me 11s disable with no consoles, just deflector and skill points. Unskilled it is 8s. On Tribble, fully speccing for it and using the same deflector gives me only 10s, from the same 8s unskilled. A net loss of 1 second, which is a major hit considering I only gained 3 seconds from fully skilling it on Holodeck. That puts the skills at a 2.6:1 ratio.

What is really going on? Only the Dev's know for sure, but it is quite clear the Joined Trill trait was very much nerfed, aside from damage which was slightly buffed. Things are all over the place in the new skill system, but that doesn't mean it should stay that way, especially with the heavy nerfs to traits.

Edit: fixed VM math.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
11-12-2011, 12:59 AM
I think it is unfair to people that have a Trill character for this silent nerf. I really hope Cryptic does the right thing and adds fair compensation for this nerf. It's really bad business practice to take away things your clients have without saying a word and expect people not to notice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
11-12-2011, 03:49 AM
its niot a Nerf imho but a challenge the systems have changed but with time and practice on the
Tribble server every existing player wiill know what needs to be done, in this respect we have the advantage over the F2P players that will be joining us, as fleeting as it will be!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
11-12-2011, 04:52 AM
Yes the skill tree has changed, so you get more from less points. However all other space traits have stayed the same, giving you a + 10. Now the joined trill has gone from + 20 over 5 of skills, to + 10 over 3 skills, some of which are now useless for my build and make a join trill non-viable compared to races with 4 space traits. Its not what I paid for or took the time to level up, they have to give us a free Rerace/Retrait.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
11-12-2011, 07:46 AM
Originally Posted by USSEnterpiseZ
they have to give us a free Rerace/Retrait.
would that not be concidered genetic engineering? =p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
11-12-2011, 08:44 AM
Possibly the Trill was too powerful in the new simpler system and they over nerfed it? (or not).

To be honest I've played Lib Borg so long I have no Trill experience.

I do support the Race/retrait though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
11-12-2011, 10:38 AM
I understand rebalancing the Joined Trill but I think we need some explanation from Gecko on how these traits compare with the old, as right now it 'looks' like a nerf.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
11-13-2011, 03:51 AM
I am hoping that honestly this is something that is in flux or is being evaluated. It sure seems like a nerf to me. Maybe it's not but it looks like it is.

However I also understand that timetable wise they have a ton of stuff on their collective plates and have a small crew to get it all done against the time table they are on. So that evaluating this may not take priority. But a Dev Response would be nice.

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