Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-14-2011, 09:43 PM
I'm all for an improved skill tree. but at the same time, i would hope that there are still a few extra skills out there that I might be able to train up "outside" of the standard realm.

How about Diplomacy skills to aid in Diplomacy missions?
How about Fleet skills to aid in PVP/PVE/Fleet missions?

I'll have to put more of this down on paper before I post something, but overall, I'm all for an extended gameplay. I don't want to make admiral in a week. I'd assume it should take like a year or so for casual players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-14-2011, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
Exactly. That is the point. In fact, there is a new change coming out soon that will further emphasize this. Space Skills will be:
18 (+18)
36 (+18)
54 (+18)
64 (+10)
74 (+10)
84 (+10)
89 (+5)
94 (+5)
99 (+5)
Thank you now it rly makes sense to think about to spec higher then rank 4 in a given skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
To emphasize this more, Training Nodes will now unlock at Rank 6 insead of 9 - further trying to emphasize that the last 3 points are just for min maxing..
To set the BOff train unlocks to rank 6 is awesome.

Now just tune the cost per rank back to 100 or 125 skillpoints and i see a bright future for the new skilltree.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-14-2011, 09:52 PM
No offense, but I think that's a terrible idea Geko. Why even spending points for so little skill gain?


The more you invest, the more rewards you should benefit! For example:


Instead of multiple weapon skills, you invest basically in Energy Weapons, you start off with +5 skill and 100 cost, then it linearly goes up to a point, then costs get higher and the skills go up an logarithimic scale so after a while you got a choice you can be a highly skilled in Beam Weaponry or you go further into a Mastered level and come with benefits like higher proc rates and higher criticals.

(In the old skill tree, be equivalent of being skilled in phasers or do you go for Anti-Proton?)

So in turn for that mastered weaponry, you lose potential for those skill points into Shields or Energy systems. This again puting stronger emphasis in different types of builds. You can be Strong in Attacks and Weak in Defense, Strong in Defense but Weak in Attack, Balanced builds, or builds that are strong in Special Abilities (Science).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-14-2011, 10:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
Exactly. That is the point. In fact, there is a new change coming out soon that will further emphasize this. Space Skills will be:
18 (+18)
36 (+18)
54 (+18)
64 (+10)
74 (+10)
84 (+10)
89 (+5)
94 (+5)
99 (+5)

We hope to get the UI to reflect the 3 "blocks" of "front-loadedness".

The point is, you don't need to put 9 points in each skill. Going broad in a lot of skills, medium in some, and deep in just a couple will actually gain you more effectiveness than what you can do currently on holodeck.

To emphasize this more, Training Nodes will now unlock at Rank 6 insead of 9 - further trying to emphasize that the last 3 points are just for min maxing.

This is just another iteration, so we look forward to your feedback once these changes are live
Cool, unlocking training at 6 rather than 9 will be a pretty nice step in the right direction. Is there any chance of GREATLY reducing the number of Tier 5 skills that provide training ? Especially in the Engineering and Science trees, this issue is rather painful.



Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
Let be clear. We didn't cut the number of skills in half and double the cost. We cut the number of skills in half, only raised the cost by 50% (a net gain in buying power), and increased the effectiveness of the early points (front-loading). When we finish the ground skills, those too will be cut down in half or even to 1/3 - giving you even more buying power.

We understand this takes a little getting used to. We appreciate your diligence in testing. Try different builds that are more diversified, and only specialize in a few skills. I think you will find you are quite effective.
Is it still the plan to eventually split the ground skills into their own separate skill pool ? Because the bolded part of the above quote would seem to indicate otherwise, at least in the short term.
If they're not separated, we'll still likely get primarily space focused builds

As to the net gain in buying power... It's not as good as you've made it out to be. Instead of Quoting myself ( ), I'll simply refer you to my post on it here. The TL/DR of the post is while we went from 69 space based skills to 33, the effective choices only went from 43 skills on live to 33 with the current system on Tribble. With the 50% price hike... that's pretty painful.

Also, for spending simplicities sake, I really, *really* REALLY prefer 100 skill point Tiers to 150. 100 makes it much easier to spend points in other Tiers as you level, if there's lower Tier skills you want to fill out. 150 point Tiers is very awkward for some reason.

All this being said, I'm looking forward to testing the updated skill system and providing more feedback.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-14-2011, 10:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko

Let be clear. We didn't cut the number of skills in half and double the cost. We cut the number of skills in half, only raised the cost by 50% (a net gain in buying power), and increased the effectiveness of the early points (front-loading). When we finish the ground skills, those too will be cut down in half or even to 1/3 - giving you even more buying power.

We understand this takes a little getting used to. We appreciate your diligence in testing. Try different builds that are more diversified, and only specialize in a few skills. I think you will find you are quite effective.
I'm not seeing an increase in "buying power"; I'm seeing an overall decrease in space effectiveness, at a net increase in percentage of skill points expended there. I'll give it another try when these changes go live, but all they appear to do is allow me to drop some skills below max at a lesser penalty - this won't help me recover the abilities I've lost on holodeck.

I'm also wondering why the consoles that modify power levels were cut in half as part of this. The changes to the skill system shouldn't have inherently required any changes to them. If you've decided the consoles were overpowered, then so be it; but that should have been a patch note, as it has nothing to do with skills.

If part of the goal of the new skill system was to reign in the "high-end" space builds, then that's your decision to make. But if that's not the intent, I'm not seeing a way to retain the level of performance I currently have on holodeck with the new skill system and the new consoles.

It's not a dramatic decrease in performance, but it's quite real and trying to minimize it costs me the points I was spending on ground skills. Maybe I'm just not doing things right, but that's how its working out for me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-14-2011, 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
Exactly. That is the point. In fact, there is a new change coming out soon that will further emphasize this. Space Skills will be:
18 (+18)
36 (+18)
54 (+18)
64 (+10)
74 (+10)
84 (+10)
89 (+5)
94 (+5)
99 (+5)

We hope to get the UI to reflect the 3 "blocks" of "front-loadedness".

The point is, you don't need to put 9 points in each skill. Going broad in a lot of skills, medium in some, and deep in just a couple will actually gain you more effectiveness than what you can do currently on holodeck.

To emphasize this more, Training Nodes will now unlock at Rank 6 insead of 9 - further trying to emphasize that the last 3 points are just for min maxing.
This may be a good change indeed, because otherwise, learning for a specific skill is way to cost-prohibitive. Especially when we talk Tier 5 ships.

Quote:
Let be clear. We didn't cut the number of skills in half and double the cost. We cut the number of skills in half, only raised the cost by 50% (a net gain in buying power), and increased the effectiveness of the early points (front-loading). When we finish the ground skills, those too will be cut down in half or even to 1/3 - giving you even more buying power.

We understand this takes a little getting used to. We appreciate your diligence in testing. Try different builds that are more diversified, and only specialize in a few skills. I think you will find you are quite effective.
The small level cap raise to accomdate for the changed skill point cost though still seems a little... off. It seems very unelegant. A 100 / 300 / 400 / 500 / 600 skill point cost is not workable? Possibly adjusting the lower level skill caps to not give too many skill points out there?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17 Min Amount Of Sp Spent?
11-15-2011, 01:55 AM
Will there be a min amount of SP that are required in tier 4? If so how many? What if you decide, I do not need the max in anything, and I want to be a jack of all trades so to speak, and not specialize in anything. Can I max out tier 1 and 2 and forget about 3 and 4? Or will there be a min of points that must be spent in each tier like on holodeck?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-15-2011, 04:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
This may be a good change indeed, because otherwise, learning for a specific skill is way to cost-prohibitive. Especially when we talk Tier 5 ships.


The small level cap raise to accomdate for the changed skill point cost though still seems a little... off. It seems very unelegant. A 100 / 300 / 400 / 500 / 600 skill point cost is not workable? Possibly adjusting the lower level skill caps to not give too many skill points out there?
This is a serious issue that I hope they reconsider. The 50 extra points in a tier is too limiting should someone wish to go back and spend a little bit of their left over points on a lower tier. It's important to have the potential to spend points in a viable skill without having an odd remainder.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-15-2011, 04:51 AM
I see no way to switch ships right now, with this new skill tree, without respecing. The new skill tree was presented to, or implied, so as players would not have to respec when switching ships because the player could skill into their play style.

Play style to me includes how I spec out my BO's with respec to the different ships. Which Tac,Eng,Sci abilities I primarily use. Obviously the exstra slots depending on ships gives more options for t3 skills, but not really that big of a deal if the skill tree was favorable.

The new skill tree is far to sloppy and too costly, like many posters have already stated.

But what really boils my blood the most is the DEV's saying they want us to be patient and test it and the changes to it coming down the pipe.

If the system was to have a true test then the respec amount should be zero'd out or removed so that we can test it in real time. To me this is not a test, its more like the Dev's trying to convince everyone to play it the Dev way.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-15-2011, 04:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainGeko
The point is, you don't need to put 9 points in each skill. Going broad in a lot of skills, medium in some, and deep in just a couple will actually gain you more effectiveness than what you can do currently on holodeck.
I owe Foxrocks an apoligy for my stance on diminishing returns and maxing skills.

I have designed a Tactical KDF build that spreads the points around but maxes the Combat and ship skills to best give me a viable vessel and damage output ingame (as best my ability);
I designed this skill build to max three of the T5 skills corresponding to Tactical and saw absolutely no difference between 5's , 7's and 9's in said skills in relation to gameplay stats and only a marginal increase in damage scores of a few hundred points and even a drop in some weapon damage (or so it seems)

The diminishing returns for maxing a skill may be to diminished and offer no benefit for the scarifices made to max said skills.

On the subject of switching ships, I still see no issues and have switched from Bop to Raptor to VoQ without penalty other than retraining a BOff power or two.
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