Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-17-2011, 03:57 PM
The fadge is a sci ship?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-17-2011, 06:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallout23 View Post
I realize now that my op got off track. Originally, the thought I was trying to convey was that it is weird for sci ships to have 4 extra ensign tac abilities along with sensor analysis. Not console abilities or abilities that give up console slots. Just 4 extra BO abilities. Just seems odd to me that it seems normal to have this on one class of ship. I like analogies, so imagine if they released a p2w excelsior refit that had 4 ensign level sci abilities attached to it with no penalty to BO slots or console slots. It would be crazy right? Why is it normal for sci to have it then?
I would gladly give up my all of my target subsytems abilities for a seventh weapon slot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-17-2011, 08:07 PM
I'd like someone to explain how science ships are so OP. They obviously come into their own in PVP thanks to the BOFF powers which are mostly useless in PVE, but what is it that puts them over the top? Is it just the Intrepid Refit? Is it certain BOFF powers? Far too often I see people say Sci is OP, yet they are complaining about SNB or Photonic fleet, or scramble sensors, not anything native to the ship itself.

As for subsystem targeting 1, yeah those things do not impress me at all. They are nice, but they have this habit of never being available when I want them thanks to the super long cooldowns, and the fact they are all on the same global cooldown.

And sensor analysis is damn near useless in PVP. I am switching targets constantly in most cases. Healing, debuffing, shooting down torpedoes or whatever, it just doesn't work at all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-17-2011, 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
The issue is that sci/sci sucks at PvE (well, it doesn't really suck in that you still can never lose, it just takes a lot longer to kill stuff), so Cryptic in their infinite wisdom decided to buff science ships to epic proportions (or they were too dumb to realize that changes like 1 sec global torp cool down would greatly benefit science ships over everything else). Of course, the obvious and correct answer from a game design perspective would be to make NPC enemies fail less so that playing the debuff class makes some amount of sense in PvE, but we all know that's not the way Cryptic works
LoL I couldnt have said it any better.

This is exactly what has been going on in Cryptics mind and with F2P it will only become worse.

Tactical buff? No way. Imagine more PvE'ers crying they got slaughtered by a Decloaking Defiant or because of lack of Shield/resist buffs. lol. HALT. WAIT. We get the new fancy and _Highest Damage Cannons_ in the game with only a minor -10 engine drain and awesome Dmg x3 modifiers. Who can stand up against that, aye? :]

A fancy Impulse console to GTFO even faster then ever before! Engineer got a stupid AMS conslole which ONLY freezed your tray to uselessness for the upcoming 10-15 seconds., i could have sworn I would like more graphical distortions on my screen then its giving me at this very moment.

Then we come to the least interesting part... The Intrepid... It can only use that weak Ablative Armor for a short while. and after that i have only 10 more backup systems before I finally die. Rhode Island Console is next to be activated d^-^b

Oh wait, let me extend my final death wish for another 5 minutes. Nice 5v1 btw, now I check shockwave.

Moar plz!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-17-2011, 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
I'd like someone to explain how science ships are so OP. They obviously come into their own in PVP thanks to the BOFF powers which are mostly useless in PVE, but what is it that puts them over the top? Is it just the Intrepid Refit? Is it certain BOFF powers? Far too often I see people say Sci is OP, yet they are complaining about SNB or Photonic fleet, or scramble sensors, not anything native to the ship itself.

As for subsystem targeting 1, yeah those things do not impress me at all. They are nice, but they have this habit of never being available when I want them thanks to the super long cooldowns, and the fact they are all on the same global cooldown.

And sensor analysis is damn near useless in PVP. I am switching targets constantly in most cases. Healing, debuffing, shooting down torpedoes or whatever, it just doesn't work at all.
I don't think the "naked" Science Vessel is overpowered.

The ability to slot science powers is that makes it strong. The Intrepids Ablative Armor could be more powerful on a Cruiser, but it is definitely powerful in its own right.

The strength of science powers (be it BO or Captain) seems also directly correlated to the strength of all other powers. If there weren't so strong resistance and attack buffs, Subnucleonic Beam would be less relevant. If healing was weaker, so would be Scramble Sensors. Charged Particle Burst's effectiveness is dependent on the prevalance of shield resistances.
This is evident if you compare science strengths in PvP vs PvE. In PvP, powers fly around everywhere, no one (that counts ) is without resistance or damge buffs. Science rules. In PvE, powers are mostly used by players, not the NPCs, and consequently the science powers are not very impressive. A Charged Particle Burst doesn't really compensate for 2 more BA or a couple of DHCs.

But I am not telling anything new here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-18-2011, 05:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hurleybird View Post
Sensor analysis isn't too relevant (although any boost to damage helps), except in dueling. Native target subsystem abilities are obviously very relevant.

In any case, sci doesn't need either of these goodies to be effective. Perhaps instead of taking away and causing grief for PvErs and RPers, Cryptic could give escorts and cruisers more goodies of their own?
I could get behind that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-18-2011, 05:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fallout23 View Post
I realize now that my op got off track. Originally, the thought I was trying to convey was that it is weird for sci ships to have 4 extra ensign tac abilities along with sensor analysis. Why is it normal for sci to have it then?
Becuase its a throw back to the early days of STO that got left behind due to the belief that Science needed something to level them (at that time) on the playing field ingame.
BTSx was never just opened up as a gamewide targeting option for all ships as (imo) it should 've been.
Its the targeting systems that allow such pinpoint accuracy, not the school of Science.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-18-2011, 06:56 AM
Target subsystems 1 is so weak that it is practically useless, especially if you use beam overloads. (shared cooldown).

I raise my previous offer: I will give up all of my target subsytems + sensor analysis for a seventh weapons slot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-18-2011, 07:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stromgold View Post
Target subsystems 1 is so weak that it is practically useless, especially if you use beam overloads. (shared cooldown).

I raise my previous offer: I will give up all of my target subsytems + sensor analysis for a seventh weapons slot.
-40 power unbuffed, -52 with Sensor Analysis?

That's only with spec'ing into Sensor Array (for Sensor Scan), without a corresponding deflector or consoles.

For something that's free, it's mighty handy. It's great for offensive Sci builds (broadsides, etc), it's great for power drain/Tyken's builds (since you don't have to waste a Tac slot on a BTS, you can get another HYT there), it's great for pure support/shield strip builds (all torps + 1 low power beam to drain is very effective). There's no reason not to use them.

Plus, the greatest enemy a Sci will face is another Sci - and you can neuter an opposing Sci fairly effectively with a BTS Aux 1.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-18-2011, 01:04 PM
I wouldn't discount tier one target subsystem abilities entirely. They can be quite annoying. I wouldn't put one on an escort, considering some of the better options, but if it's free I'm more than happy to use it.

And also, what Mustrum said (because I'm lazy like that).
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