Lt. Commander
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# 11
11-18-2011, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
Compared between a Starfleet that has to recruit and train its officers vs. a Dominion that can clone Jem'hadar and Vorta.......

I'm also pretty sure Starfleet doesn't have a draft system in place, while the Klingons would.
When you think about it, manpower shortage is not a relative thing.
Even if Dominion cloning vats did not run at full power Starfleet could still have a manpower shortage.
And if the Dominion cloning vats ran at full capacity and Starfleet got all the personel it needed it would not be a manpower shortage either.
Whether they are outnumbered or not is an entriely different matter altogether.

Either you have enough people for all your needs or you don't.

As for the Klingons, I specifically added a line for that too.

"I seriously doubt there'd ever be not enough Klingons not hearing "the call of the warrior" "
I don't think the Klingons would understand the concept of drafting either.
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# 12
11-18-2011, 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
When you think about it, manpower shortage is not a relative thing.
Even if Dominion cloning vats did not run at full power Starfleet could still have a manpower shortage.
And if the Dominion cloning vats ran at full capacity and Starfleet got all the personel it needed it would not be a manpower shortage either.
Whether they are outnumbered or not is an entriely different matter altogether.

Either you have enough people for all your needs or you don't.

As for the Klingons, I specifically added a line for that too.

"I seriously doubt there'd ever be not enough Klingons not hearing "the call of the warrior" "
I don't think the Klingons would understand the concept of drafting either.
The Dominion has Jem'Hadar and Vorta cloned, programmed with the required information for what ey would be doing out on the battlefield and ready to send off to battle within weeks to months.

Starfleet Academy (And most likely, the Romulans and Cardassians too) on the other hand would have officers that are at least High School Graduates before entering, having at least the equivalent of a Jr. College education for enlisted and/or Jr. officers, and then having the equivalent of Bachelors Degrees for higher ranking officers.

Klingons on the other hand may be more lenient, and perhaps accepting recruits as young as people in thier mid-High School. I would also think the Klingons would understand the concept of a draft, considering TOS Klingons. And as far as STO is concerned, the Federation/Klingon relations (with the exception of e B'Vat arc is essentially reverted to how it was in TOS.
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# 13
11-18-2011, 11:44 PM
Do the Klingons have a chance?

In The Next Generation episode "Yesterday's Enterprise" there is an alternate reality where the Klingons and Federation is locked in a bloody war. By Picard's estimate the Federation will have loost the war in a matter of weeks. Guinan herself says; "Forty billion people have already been lost in this war." Clearly the Federation is loosing to the Klingons. Though an alternate reality it does indicate what would happen in a fullscale war between the two superpowers. The Klingons are far more ruthless. It seems this might win through.

In Deep Space 9 there is a state of war between the Klingons and the Federation that is quite real, though it doesn't last very long and is not fought to its conclusion. While Deep Space 9 was held, I feel this is mostly due to the "Legendary Captain" effect. Sisco, Picard and Kirk never really loose a battle unless necessary story-wise. On the other hand, most reports about the conflict seems to be negative. Friends lost and planets falling. Sisco Junior plays a journalist, goes to the frontline and is caught up in ground warfare, it is clear the colony he is on is being lost to the Klingons.

Even in Kirk's time I feel the Klingons would have won an outright war, despite the sentiment that Starfleet is superior. In the same way the Klingons do think they are superior. Lets be honest. Starfleet has lots of science ships and smaller vessels, like the Oberth, and while heavy combat capable starships such as the Miranda class, Constitution class and Excelsior class exist, every Klingon ship is a warship. Even a Bird of Prey can be a threat. And we never really get to see a K'tinga fight it out with a Constitution (though there is D7s vs Constitution in TOS). In Voyager, during the episode where Tuvok talks about his time on the Excelsior, we clearly see the Excelsior being hounded and damaged by K'tingas. I believe a full scale war here too would go the Klingons way.

Have the Star Trek universe changed that much in 30 years? The real question should be, "Does the Federation even have a chance?"
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# 14
11-19-2011, 12:32 AM
Klingons would have a very real chance. They control a huge area of space that they have conjured and those resources belong to them. They may very well have 150 planets under their control for all we know. Past eps of star trek, especially yesterdays enterprise show that the klingons are a match for the feds.

Now in the TV series if push came to shove the Feds would win because they are the 'good guys', but while the feds tech may be superior the klingons think mostly about one thing; war and how to improve their art of war. The klinks and feds also remained allies for many years after endgame and we have no idea what tech they traded.

not to mention that you add the gorn, orions etc to the mix. Id say its pretty even.
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# 15
11-19-2011, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Chance or no chance, we will fight to win none-the-less and when, in the decades before you die, as you years become as short as your breath - You can say, " I was there and saw the great War! " ...............
This here about sums it up in "The Heart of every Klingon is the heart of a Warrior". Klingon's don't worry about if they lose a planet or two to occupation they are going to make your life on that planet miserable while you occupy it. However if you resist them when they conquer your planet they will blast your planet back into the stone age.

The Klingon's aren't worried about exploration and making friends... If you are not their friend you either are the enemy or are a potential enemy. If you slight their honor they will kill you.

Picking a fight with a Klingon is like picking a fight with the biggest meanest guy in a bar. Unless your pretty sure you can win... probably not a good idea.

Just my two cents
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# 16
11-19-2011, 03:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
The Dominion has Jem'Hadar and Vorta cloned, programmed with the required information for what ey would be doing out on the battlefield and ready to send off to battle within weeks to months.

Starfleet Academy (And most likely, the Romulans and Cardassians too) on the other hand would have officers that are at least High School Graduates before entering, having at least the equivalent of a Jr. College education for enlisted and/or Jr. officers, and then having the equivalent of Bachelors Degrees for higher ranking officers.
We know Starfleet has lots of people in service that never went to Starfleet Academy, O'Brien only being the most prominent since he was a main character.
Simon Tarses from TNG: "The Drumhead" was another.
He applied as a crewman without going to the Academy.
We've also seen Starfleet has no problems sending cadetts into the field so it does not take that long to produce new material in wartime.
Peace-time output is an entirely different matter altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Lau
Klingons on the other hand may be more lenient, and perhaps accepting recruits as young as people in thier mid-High School. I would also think the Klingons would understand the concept of a draft, considering TOS Klingons. And as far as STO is concerned, the Federation/Klingon relations (with the exception of e B'Vat arc is essentially reverted to how it was in TOS.
However the DS9 episode "Sons and Daughters" makes it absolutely clear that everyone who went to the KDF did so out of their own free will.
When Martok questions Worf's son and it beomces clear he was not there because he had heard the cry of the warrior he is sent away.
Even in times of war Klingons don't accept people who have not joined the KDF for the right reasons.
In case of drafting this situation would be even "worse" from their point of view.

As far as their age in concerned, Alexander of course sufferend from the "Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome" however Rom Moore explicitly stated the Klingons mature much faster and are physically "finished" around the age of 14.

And just because the releations between the Feds and Klingons have reverted does not mean the Klingons themselves have reverted as well.
And even in TOS there was never any hint of draft even if it was simply because Klignons were never explored in enough detail for this to come up.
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# 17
11-19-2011, 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
Well the OP is kind of right, I was wondered about that several times already.

Its not the number of planets in itsself.... its the fact that the federation has 150 members (it will most likley have more then that = colonies), that are the ORGIN of at least one race.... 150 CIVILISATIONS.

STO timeline aside.... the Klingons have ONE civilisation. They may have conquered a few worlds, may have deployed their colonies earlier ect ect.... but still.... I dont remember seeing anything but KLINGONS in the Empire in the series. One Homeworld, one orgin.
So as long as the Klingons do not breed 150 times as much as the average federation race.... they should be seriously outnumbered.
Same goes for Romulans, Cardassians and any other empire of that kind by logic...
At the very latest the Klingons started to look out into space in the 14th century so they've had colonies for nearly 1000 years.
By the 24th century humans managed to have 50 million people linving on the moon.
Either in domed cities or in some kind of terraformed atmosphere.
In any case to get that many people there must have been quite a bit of work.
Colonizing uninhabited planets that could suport Klingon life without any trouble would have meant a hughe boon.
We know that even though a lot of it is not really hospitable and it was more of a forced colonization than anything else Australia has roughly 20 million peole living there and that's "only" been a bit over 300 years.
Now consider planets that have much larger lush regions than the Australian continent and then consider 3 times that amount of time with much more sophisticated technology than 18th century earth.
There is no need for the Klingons Empire to conist of many different species under such conditions.
Klingons started out in an entirely different way than humans for example who had lots of neighbours who were technologically either on par or more advanced.
Klingons appearently started out with lots of planets with no sentient life on them and few if any neighbours technologically capable of competing with them.
So they probably expanded in a way similar to the way Europeans "colonized" many parts of the world.
They just stayed there for roughly 1000 years.
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# 18
11-19-2011, 05:44 PM
When I honestly ponder this debate I have come to the conclution that the war would be a draw at best. Pre dominion war I think the Klingons rock the federation like a hurricane. The Borg had started the federation on the path to the development of a war ship, thus the Defiant. The federation stopped production of the defiant line until the war, and clearly had concentrated on less military minded ships since the initial peace with the Klingon empire had begun. I'm Honestly supprised the Cardassian war fought before TNG ended well for the Federation. The Dominion war seems to actually be the best thing to happen to the Federation in terms of the war with the Klingon Empire. Not only did the Federation learn Klingon tactics and capabilities, they increased the armorments of their own ships and gained much needed military experience. Many of the young fighters in the federation in the Dominion wars, would be flag officers in the federation at this point. The emphasis on smaller sleaker more combat minded crusiers and escourt ships combined with the number of ships that the federation seems to have either in moth ball or in trainning type status along with 150 populated worlds, many of which are core race home worlds most likely gives the federation a manufacturing advantage over the Klingon empire, but the Klingons would most likely enter the war with more combat capable ships. Both sides will be decimated in an all out war.
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# 19
11-20-2011, 07:57 AM
The war would most certainly pivot on Key points and failures that allow the opponent the upper hand, otherwise I must agree it would be a draw.
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# 20
11-20-2011, 09:22 AM
I think Picard meant that there were over 150 warp-capable species in the Federation (how many non-warp capable species are there in the federation?). I would imagine that humans alone have dozens if not hundreds or thousands of colony planets, but they are not necessarily densely populated.
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