Lt. Commander
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# 21
11-20-2011, 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymo0829 View Post
When I honestly ponder this debate I have come to the conclution that the war would be a draw at best. Pre dominion war I think the Klingons rock the federation like a hurricane. The Borg had started the federation on the path to the development of a war ship, thus the Defiant. The federation stopped production of the defiant line until the war, and clearly had concentrated on less military minded ships since the initial peace with the Klingon empire had begun. I'm Honestly supprised the Cardassian war fought before TNG ended well for the Federation. The Dominion war seems to actually be the best thing to happen to the Federation in terms of the war with the Klingon Empire. Not only did the Federation learn Klingon tactics and capabilities, they increased the armorments of their own ships and gained much needed military experience. Many of the young fighters in the federation in the Dominion wars, would be flag officers in the federation at this point. The emphasis on smaller sleaker more combat minded crusiers and escourt ships combined with the number of ships that the federation seems to have either in moth ball or in trainning type status along with 150 populated worlds, many of which are core race home worlds most likely gives the federation a manufacturing advantage over the Klingon empire, but the Klingons would most likely enter the war with more combat capable ships. Both sides will be decimated in an all out war.
In a quick war, maybe, but you have to remember on the show that the Klingons acquired a lot of their technology through alliances and conquest. There are several episodes where they intone that the Warrior class has ensured that only paltry resources and respect are paid to people with other occupations. Presumably, the Federation would be much better at adapting technological solutions specific to fighting the Klingons (like they did with the Borg) whereas the Klingons would have a much more difficult time developing countermeasures.

You saw this in the final episode of TNG, where the refitted Enterprise (itself probably a half-century old design at that point) easily defeated two equally sized (and presumably equally powered and armed) Klingon warships even though one of these Klingon ships probably would have been an even match for the Enterprise D back in the TNG era.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xut_OMlAVyY
Lt. Commander
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# 22
11-20-2011, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
The war would most certainly pivot on Key points and failures that allow the opponent the upper hand, otherwise I must agree it would be a draw.
I agree with you. Wars are won and lost juse because of one singularly bad decision at a critical juncture. You can see this in both the American Civil War and in World War 2.
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# 23
11-20-2011, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
(how many non-warp capable species are there in the federation?)
Since First Contact is forbidden until a species achieves Warp Travel, my guess woudl be...none.
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# 24
11-20-2011, 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
In a quick war, maybe, but you have to remember on the show that the Klingons acquired a lot of their technology through alliances and conquest. There are several episodes where they intone that the Warrior class has ensured that only paltry resources and respect are paid to people with other occupations. Presumably, the Federation would be much better at adapting technological solutions specific to fighting the Klingons (like they did with the Borg) whereas the Klingons would have a much more difficult time developing countermeasures.
How much they got from where has neer been stated.
There is even indication Klingons developed warp drive before they were taken over by the Hur'q.
As for anti-someone measures (sorry, could not find any less dumb term):
Klingons never seemed to have had any problems with Dominion Polaron weapons and even managed to be the first to overcome Breen Dampening tech, beyond that there is no actual need to develop any anti-someone tech when fighting the Federation.
In "Once More Unto the Breach" they also devised a plan on the fly how to force 10 enemy ships out of warp with the allmighty deflector just as Starfleet would have done it.
So their ships and the minds of the Klingons are just as flexible when it come to developing new ides as their enemies.
The same would apply to an engineer back home devising new concepts, they'de be reviewed and incorporated.
So specific anti-enemy tech is only of consequene when the enemy can really adapt as well as the Borg can.
And even then there is a soft-canon indication Klingons can deal with such problem quite effectively.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Qang_class

at leat as far as STO is concerned this class exists since "The Path to 2409" references the IKS Gorkon in the 2398 section.

In addition even though Klingon warriors have the highest standing in their society there has never been any indication their researchers don't get the resources they need otherwise they would not have managed to produce ships like the K't'inga or Vor'cha that could face their Federation counterparts 1:1 even though they had only have their mass.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
You saw this in the final episode of TNG, where the refitted Enterprise (itself probably a half-century old design at that point) easily defeated two equally sized (and presumably equally powered and armed) Klingon warships even though one of these Klingon ships probably would have been an even match for the Enterprise D back in the TNG era.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xut_OMlAVyY
Yes the Enterprise managed to blow up that ship and drive off the sescond.
However there is also a harsh reality you need to take into account when such things are shown:
In Star Trek ships with main characters aboard are always more powerful than "redshirt ships".
In some cases they are so totally over the top powerful it makes gauging their true capabilites nearly impossible.
For example a regular Klingon BoP could roughly match a Doninion Fighter while the Defiant could destroy several of them at once, either BoP or Jem Hadar Fighter.
Yet the Rotarren could fight against several Jem Hadar at once and win without any serious damage ("Sons and Daughters").

She could even match the Defiant's four pulse phasers with her two disruptor guns in the first scenes of "Favor the Bold".
Both took the exact amount fo time to finish off the same type of enemy ship.
Why?
Worf was on the Rotarren and therfore the ship got the main character bonus.
Either it means one of Starfleet's most innovative warships is as good as an 80 years old design...or ships are just as powerful as the scipt needs them to be.
So when you see a totally undefeatable Galaxy wiping the floor with two Klingon cruisers it's not a testament to Starfleet's superiority, it's just that the script demanded it.
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# 25
11-20-2011, 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Since First Contact is forbidden until a species achieves Warp Travel, my guess woudl be...none.
The Federation does seem to make some level of exception for species that have already had extraterrestrial contact. It's not entirely clear where the line is drawn or if it's case by case, but there were instances where contact that wasn't accidental was made with non-warp species, one from TOS that had already been the victim of Klingon interference comes to mind. It's not clear if any of them were actually part of the Federation, some were in Federation space but not members and none were followed up on to know if they ended up joining. Soft cannon explores that a bit more, and STO seems to have accepted that at least some non-warp species are part of the Federation, or at least have sufficient contact to join Starfleet. Horta have little to no technology of their own at all, but from item descriptions, our "pet" horta are on board willingly and are actual Starfleet/KDF personnel.
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# 26
11-20-2011, 05:36 PM
Honestly, for the sense of entertainment, the Federation breaks thier own rules whn it suits them.
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# 27
11-20-2011, 08:47 PM
Do they stand a chance? Why sure they do and should they rally a large enough force to take areas of space and continue forward. Then they could more than likely do so . However the biggest problem that all factions are faceing at the moment is being able to focus there forces onto an objective. While still being able to defend. With the Borg,Undine,Devidian,etc it has everyone looking over there shoulder either from external threat or fear of internal.
I suppose thats kinda the reason we do start by fighting each other but by the time we all get to Gamma Orionis that its much more of a cold war. Everyone coming to grips with the fact that unless the factions work togethor then all of them will fail one at a time.
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# 28
11-21-2011, 08:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
The Federation does seem to make some level of exception for species that have already had extraterrestrial contact. It's not entirely clear where the line is drawn or if it's case by case, but there were instances where contact that wasn't accidental was made with non-warp species, one from TOS that had already been the victim of Klingon interference comes to mind. It's not clear if any of them were actually part of the Federation, some were in Federation space but not members and none were followed up on to know if they ended up joining. Soft cannon explores that a bit more, and STO seems to have accepted that at least some non-warp species are part of the Federation, or at least have sufficient contact to join Starfleet. Horta have little to no technology of their own at all, but from item descriptions, our "pet" horta are on board willingly and are actual Starfleet/KDF personnel.
Probably a case of "you can't spoil it when others have already done so" as far as contact goes even though interference would still be a problem.
Well in case of worlds like Capella it seems the Federation ignored its own rules just to get the topaline, or maybe it's just a case of the author not knowing about the directive and the error slipping through...or maybe even worse, the Prime Directive might not have been invented as far as the writing staff was concerned.
They were making the show's universe up as they went along.
Organia was appearently not unfamiliar with alien traders, Vulcans for example, while the planet itself was on a medieval level as far as humanoids viewed it.
But then "Errand of Mercy" was Season 1 which was good but it's pretty clear it was set in a universe that was still quite unfinished in some areas.
For example in that very same episode Kirk identifies the Klingon weapons as "Klingon Phasers" so the universe and what we call "canon" today was still a work in progress.

As far people joining Starfleet is concerned please keep in mind that just because you're in Starfleet it does in no way mean your people are members of the Federation.
In fact one of the drastic changes mentioned in "The Path to 2409" was that you no longer have to get a letter of recommendation from a Starfleet Officer when you're non-Federation and want to be admitted to the academy.

In case of Hortas we know contact with them was accidental even though I still find the idea of sentients as pets rather disturbing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
11-21-2011, 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
I think Picard meant that there were over 150 warp-capable species in the Federation (how many non-warp capable species are there in the federation?). I would imagine that humans alone have dozens if not hundreds or thousands of colony planets, but they are not necessarily densely populated.
Right, he could have meant "member worlds," that have representatives on the Federation Council. That probably doesn't count colony worlds, outposts, starbases, protectorates (like the two planets in Insurrection), etc. So, it's quite possible the actual number of planets in the UFP is far higher than 150.

But, that size in itself is a disadvantage, since it means that Starfleet has to defend an enormous area, and some worlds might be easily cut off by enemy advances. Plus, some of those worlds would be so distant (on the "other side" of the Federation) that they might not easily contribute to the front lines.


On a related note, I think of interest, something not brought up on DS9 (likely the writers didn't know), was that Gene Roddenberry's notes about the various aliens seen in ST: The Motion Picture included the "Arcturians," whose backstory said they were a militaristic race of cloners, who provided the backbone of Federation infantry in time of war. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Arcturian


While never mentioned on screen, and therefore probably not canon, I was always a little disappointed that DS9 didn't use that idea and make it official.
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# 30
11-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
The Federation does seem to make some level of exception for species that have already had extraterrestrial contact. It's not entirely clear where the line is drawn or if it's case by case, but there were instances where contact that wasn't accidental was made with non-warp species, one from TOS that had already been the victim of Klingon interference comes to mind. It's not clear if any of them were actually part of the Federation, some were in Federation space but not members and none were followed up on to know if they ended up joining. Soft cannon explores that a bit more, and STO seems to have accepted that at least some non-warp species are part of the Federation, or at least have sufficient contact to join Starfleet. Horta have little to no technology of their own at all, but from item descriptions, our "pet" horta are on board willingly and are actual Starfleet/KDF personnel.


Like in ST: Insurrection, when they contacted a species on the verge of warp capable flight, and made them a protectorate.

Heck, look no further than the pilot of TNG (Encounter at Farpoint), when Starfleet contracted with what at least seemed to be a non-spacefaring race to build and maintain a star base.
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