Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-20-2011, 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimsonoa View Post

OP if your set against dhc then do 2 dbb 2 torpedo 2 copies of Bo3 2copies of hyt2 rest is up to you.
I'm not set against them as such its just I have yet to see a persuasive arguement for using them as opposed to dual beams.
As I stated in my starting post this build was for running STFs. Burst damage is less important than consistant dps because most things are going to survive your initial attack regardless.

@Sardoc: Careful your post was almost a personal attack. I KNOW how to fly an escort I've been doing it for nearly 2 years. I have tried pretty much every combination of weapon systems you can think of and given the restictive movement we have in space coupled with enemies that move pretty quickly and the BO options that come with them I have found DBBs superior to dual cannons. Oh and if you are running C:RF III that means you are not running AP:B III which you should be in STFs. Take a long hard look at the different ranks for rapid fire. Its like high yield. The extra dps you get drops off after C:RF I pretty harshly.

@Hale: Try to keep in mind this is a PVE thread. I know most of what you post is pvp advioe where, I am willing to conceed, heavy cannons are much better than beams. Don't think that because it is good in pvp its good in pve. Please don't be that guy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-20-2011, 05:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Korhil
@Hale: Try to keep in mind this is a PVE thread. I know most of what you post is pvp advioe where, I am willing to conceed, heavy cannons are much better than beams. Don't think that because it is good in pvp its good in pve. Please don't be that guy.
What he said is one of the few things that applies to both PvE and PvP, especially with the new optional objectives in the STFs that require the Borg to do in a timely manner. DBBs and BO or Target Shields may be pretty decent damage over time but they don't compare in any way to DHCs and CRF and this is coming from a mediocre Sci/Escort player (I usually run Cruisers so they're not something I'm familiar with); yes, a Tac can make more use of them but even a Sci with no native damage or power level buffs can make excellent use of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-20-2011, 06:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
What he said is one of the few things that applies to both PvE and PvP, especially with the new optional objectives in the STFs that require the Borg to do in a timely manner. DBBs and BO or Target Shields may be pretty decent damage over time but they don't compare in any way to DHCs and CRF and this is coming from a mediocre Sci/Escort player (I usually run Cruisers so they're not something I'm familiar with); yes, a Tac can make more use of them but even a Sci with no native damage or power level buffs can make excellent use of them.
Target Shields Subsystem II or III is the single greatest skill an escort can bring to an STF (with AP: B III coming a close second). It makes killing cubes and tactical cubes A LOT faster. For this reason alone its almost vital to have some sort of beam on your ship.

Maybe the good old 2x dual cannon, 1x dbb and 1x torpedo is still worth considering. Haven't used that in ages.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-20-2011, 07:59 AM
AP:Beta 3 is better than CRF3 in any team situation be it PvE or PvP. AP:Beta would be even more important in PvP because of over powered healing/resistance stacking if not for the prevalence of Tactical Team. The burstier nature of DHCs mean greater damage potential regardless of whether or not your enemy is a NPC or another player. Dual Beam Banks are more forgiving at range and in regards to firing arcs but do less significant damage than their cannon counter parts.

A single DBB can certainly work up front but you are reducing your damage potential if you are only keeping it there for Subsystem Targetting. A single Beam Array in the back is far more efficient at what you are looking to accomplish. You are flying a ship with the greatest damage potential and effectively gimping it.

Fore: DHC x2, Torp x2
Aft: Tirret x2, Beam Array

TT1, CSV1, BTSS3, AP:B3
TT1, HT2, CSV2
EPtS1, Aux to Sif
EPtS1
HE1, HE2 or PH1, HE2

This would work out better to the purpose of the build you were looking at originally. You can have your two Torp launchers up front while delivering significant DPS to any targets in your forward firing arc. You are being more efficient with your DHCs and aren't wasting damage/proc potential by better utilizing turrets in a couple of aft slots. Fire off your BTSS3 every 45 seconds by tilting your ship a little then keep pumping out the DPS. Chaining TTs protects you from boarding parties and keeps you in control. Wisely using yor HEs helps to keep your chained EPtS full which maintains a decent resist indefinitely. Aux to Sif can buy you a little time if all else fails. That being said, it never hurts to move out of range if necessary.

There are some gaps still of course. An Omega could be nice in place of CSV2 (with Tactical Initiative you don't need two copies although I do like them. AP:Delta could be nice for the team too. Polarize Hull wouldn't be as good for the team but then again you could keep moving. I prefer CSV for most things but AoEs are especially effective in PvE since Beta is applied to more targets, it helps clear heavy torpedoes and trash mobs. CRF would be fine and of course Torp Spread 2 could replace HY2. If you trust your team and want to give up a TT1 that could be a good slot to slap in an extra Torp buff.

I don't know. There seem like a lot of possibilities but the most effective ones for your needs are only slight variations. I could go on and on but typing on this iPod Touch is getting tiresome, lol. Chat at you later.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-20-2011, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
AP:Beta 3 is better than CRF3 in any team situation be it PvE or PvP. AP:Beta would be even more important in PvP because of over powered healing/resistance stacking if not for the prevalence of Tactical Team. The burstier nature of DHCs mean greater damage potential regardless of whether or not your enemy is a NPC or another player. Dual Beam Banks are more forgiving at range and in regards to firing arcs but do less significant damage than their cannon counter parts.

A single DBB can certainly work up front but you are reducing your damage potential if you are only keeping it there for Subsystem Targetting. A single Beam Array in the back is far more efficient at what you are looking to accomplish. You are flying a ship with the greatest damage potential and effectively gimping it.

Fore: DHC x2, Torp x2
Aft: Tirret x2, Beam Array

TT1, CSV1, BTSS3, AP:B3
TT1, HT2, CSV2
EPtS1, Aux to Sif
EPtS1
HE1, HE2 or PH1, HE2
Thanks for the advice Hale. The only reason I wanted 2 torp launchers up front was for unloading multiple high yields at once. If only taking one high yield BO skill I don't feel its worth using 2 launchers. This means I can take either a DBB or a 3rd DHC up front. Both viable options really.

As for your BO skill choices i think the only change I would make would be to swap scatter volley 1 for rapid fire 1. Other than that it looks pretty good. Scatter Volley II actually does more dps to a single target than Rapid Fire II anyway. I'm just not sure how it effects power drain.

Im also considering dropping torpedos altogether and going something like this:

Front: 3x DHC, 1x DBB
Rear: 2x Turret, 1x Beam Array

BO Skills:

AP:B III, TSSS III, C:RF I, TT I
C:SV II / B:O III, C:RF I / B:O II, TT I

and your other BOs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-20-2011, 09:30 AM
I think they've fixed that old power drain issue on CSV. Also, CSV now offers an appropriately lower percentage damage boost than CRF. CSV now once again does less damage against up to 3 targets while a version of CRF is still the best way if only targeting one. Remember too that CSV will spread you Beta around against more targets while protecting against Heavy Torps. If your team is using FaW then you've just boosted their damage potential too. That's why I gimp myself with two CSV1s in PvP. Too many Heavies and NPCs.

And I rather like the idea of two torps up front. Even though it hurts your DoT a bit you have far more burst potential. I love torpedoes and the 1 second global cooldown makes 2 up front quite viable. I understand that STF NPCs have higher hull and shield values but if your team can get a facing down then unloading a could of HYs or Torp Spreads could be quite nice. I'm just saying that I wouldn't give up on that one entirely.

I also like Beam Overload 3 a lot . I used to chain two copies but all of the movement rebuffs forced me to look more closely at Omega. Preloading a Beam Overload helps with the cooldown issue and Tactical Initiative helps me to miss the second version less. BO3 will be awesome with a DBB but with the build you are suggesting now you are too reliant upon energy weapons for damage. You'll really notice that 50 power drain when firing 5 other energy weapons (even with an EPS Flow Reg). Some Weapon Batteries or slotting an EPtW to use after your BO could help but it might just work to fire the DBB solo and wait a couple of seconds for levels to raise. You also probably don't want to waste you BO on that Aft Beam Array since it takes the same weapon penalty for a lower damage possibility than the DBB. A Torp, especially a Tricobalt when enemy AoE isn't going off, is really a quite sexy option in the Array's place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-20-2011, 09:46 AM
Ok so maybe the build I used to run was best for me.

Front: 2x Quantum torpedo launcher, 2x Disruptor DBB
Rear: Don't care. Probably 1x Quantum torpedo launcher and 2x Turret

BO skills:

AP:B III, B:TSSS III, T:HY II, TT I
B:O III, T:HY II, TT I

Still get B:O III with a DBB, T:SSS III and 2 lots of T:HY II fired off almost simultaneously. If they indirectly unnerf the target subsystem abilities at some point it would be nice to swap B:TSSS III for II and upgrade at least 1 T:HY II to III.

Just requires a bit more cooldown management because the seige destroyer's Javelin shares a 15 sec GDC with B:O

Edit: Something else i've noticed. I dont understand the mechanics behnd it by dual cannons / dual heavy cannons seem to charge the Javelin weapon a lot faster than dual beam banks. Why is this? It may mean switching to cannons after all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-20-2011, 11:02 AM
If you chose to use that build on your Seige Destroyer then APelta (for you team) or Omega (for tractor beams) might be effective replacements to avoid conflicts with the Javelin.

I don't know. I have to admit that I've never been a fan of multiple DBB up front. The only time it was ever a good idea, in my opinion, was when FaW was bugged and gave an insane damage boost.

With that build there you have four energy weapons and two one-and-done buffs for the beams. Unbuffed weapons do negligable damage. This means that your DBBs will be virtually worthless between your BO and BTSS cooldowns. Your turrets have no buffs what so ever and become little more than something to use to hope for an additional proc. The only thing good about that is that you don't have to worry about your arcs but your range is still an issue.

I know I sound like I'm being nitpicky and I want to apologize about that. It's just that what you are trying to do is something that could more easily and more effectively be accomplished by a different ship class. I respect that you are trying to make the best build with your team in mind. AP:Beta and BTSS sound great but I'm not sure that you wouldn't be better off in an Assault Cruiser with BFaW, HY, and maybe Beam Target Subsomething while broad siding. An Excelsior would afford you a better BFaW or even your BTSS3 and an AP:Beta. Even a Science ship would let you rotate Sub System Targetting but also grant access to incredible Shield stripping options like CPB or a Tachyon Beam. Then you could spam the hell out of multiple fore and aft Torp launchers.

I guess my point is that you don't seem to be playing to your ship selections strengths.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-20-2011, 11:05 AM
I'm not as familiar with the Javelin but doesn't it charge faster based on the amount of damage you deal? To me that would suggest that the higher base dame of cannons, or maybe the firing rate of those and turrets, would charge it faster. But nevermind that, I'm not really in a position to check and find out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-20-2011, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post
I guess my point is that you don't seem to be playing to your ship selections strengths.
Maybe not but I wanted a ship with a cool special ability and considering the Siege Destroyer is the only ship that has one without sacrificing a console slot makes it an obvious choice. Cloaks don't count in my book and I don't like the idea of fighters.

Sometimes I find the limited ship variety in this game very tiring.
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