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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
12-07-2011, 02:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Koppenflak
That is a distinct possibility, and all the more reason to do it, in my mind.

IF Cryptic ever get up and actually tackles a Romulan player faction, then that is a facet of the Romulan status quo that could need to be addressed. What better way is there of doing this than introducing a featured episode arc that ties it all up, and gives rise to the beginnings of a united Romulan state?

It'd be a great way of making Starfleet crap its collective pants.
I think if and when they add a Romulan faction, they'll want it to be more "familiar."

I think it's deeply problematic with CBS either way, who are likely wary of a new status quo of anarchy but are also wary of not reflecting the events mentioned in the very popular Star Trek (2009).

With the Hirogen having virtual mastery of wormhole tech and Romulan leadership having ties to the Iconians, I think there are a variety of ways the Romulans could be "reinforced."

One approach I've advocated before is linking the Romulans up with their Mirror counterparts, who are likely culturally almost identical to the pre-Hobus Romulans aside from being more isolationist.

If you link them up, you get a Romulus which can act as a base of operations and the two groups could seamlessly meld into a unified Romulan State.

Virtually EVERYTHING about the Romulan collapse is the direct result of Jean-Luc Picard. He unearthed the Iconian gateway. It was his clone who destabilized the Romulan government and his assistance of Ambassador Spock who made them reliant on Vulcan aid.

The one account we have of a Mirror JLP which fits with the standard mirror timeline has him abandoning the alpha quadrant before the Terran Empire collapsed.

Besides that, the key cases I can find of things that indicate what MIGHT be Iconian presences or scouts are the two episodes in TOS that deal with the "Old Ones" who left the galaxy behind. (Memory Alpha assumes that there are two different groups of old ones. One sponsored the Ornithids who posed as witches and the other built ancient androids.) If these groups are connected or are the Iconians, the awakening of the Iconians might fall on James T. Kirk. This would rely on his mercy and sense of curiosity. Mirror Jimmy T. might not have have made the same choices.

One perk to the Mirror Romulans and regular Romulans forming a stable, cohesive empire is that it could lend itself to the Romulan faction having more of an axe to grind with the Terran Empire and KCA. This means that to experience all the Mirror content, you'd need to roll a Romulan.

I think this kind of hook is essential for factions in STO and the KDF could have used one.

Best case, I think the KDF was always somewhat doomed to be half the sizeof the Feds. Cryptic's attempt to correct for this was to give them Orions, Nausicaans, and Gorn but that alone didn't do the trick. I think you need to section off some big lore that would be of interest to all players and divvy it up to any new factions.

For example: imagine if most of the chances to fight Borg meant having to play a Klingon; that would have driven KDF numbers up. Likewise, by making the Mirror groups a primarily Romulan antagonist, people who are enthusiasts of fighting Terrans or Klingon-Cardassian Alliance would roll a Rommie to experience it. It's clearly not enough to give an established faction a few additional popular species; I think you need to take big, traditionally anti-Federation antagonists and divvy them out as the nemeses of non-Federation factions.

I think this could still be done with the KDF by giving them the Dominion as a personal antagonist since the Dominion turned out to be friendly or at least neutral to the Feds.

So if you want a great anti-Dominion campaign under my model, you play a Klingon and make the KDF's chief enemies the Dominion. If you want a great anti-Terran campaign, you play a Romulan and make the Terran's primary adversary the Romulans.

This gives people who aren't specifically Klingon or Romulan fans a reason to roll KDF or Romulan, to get an exclusive extended taste of a popular enemy while the Fed faction acts as more of the sampler platter.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
12-07-2011, 03:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I am not actually a big fan of the J'mpok = Undine idea, but it can work to bring closure. But I think it's unlikely the Klingons would not test their own Chancellor for being an Undine. Unless they are reall so blinded by concepts of honor and J'mpoks vigor against the Undine.
Well the J'mpok = Undine plot is as uncreative as it can get, but thats why I fits prefectly into that lazy STO background plot.
And, for me, the main aspect is "bringing it to a closure", for all that matters he can stuble over his coat and brake his neck or die of a heart attack. Main thing: He is gone. I just dont like him and what he stands for.

Quote:
An alternate take for me on the story is this:

The Klingon Empire cannot live in peace. The entire focus on its warrior culture means it must expand, its warriors must send into battles to gain honor and glory. But there isn't a real enemy. As long as the Klingons are allied with the Federation, they can't lead wars that easily. The Romulans may have been the only race that was still a valid target, but then the Hobus Supernova destroyed the Empire, and the remains are not really worthy of a Klingon Warrior. And even if it was, there is still the issue that the Federation is in the way.

What would be the alternative? The only thing the Federation wouldn't meddle with would be a Civil War. Klingons killing each other for glory and honor, fighting for control of the Empire.

Martok may have seen this, but he may have believed he could change the Klingons, or at least hold all together, even without an external foe to strike against. J'mpok didn't. He replaced Martok, broke the ties with the Federation willingly (which always fundamentally stood in the way of conquest) as he had the Empire conquer the Gorn, and now uses the Undine threat as a justification to strike against the Federation.

Of course, he is misguided. He believes the Klingon Warrior tradition cannot be changed to allow peaceful coexistence (without Civil Wars replacing conquest), maybe even believes that Klingon tradition is right and the Empire has to expand and conquer the Alpha Quadrant and more.

Developing this storyline could lead to interesting results - a new Klingon Tradition, one that treats warriors with respect, but not the only worthy goal to attend to, and not as the highest class. One that allows the Warriors to act as pure defenders, that can accept peace times just fine and allow gaining Honor without conquest.
It may also lead to the Empire breaking into two parts - traditionalists under J'mpok, and Progressives under Worf or the House of Martok. (This could give space for Territory Control modes, as the Traditionalists fight for control over Progressives and Federation territory).
Actually, I dont see why the later mentionet aproach needs to be a new tradition, that is prety much how I see the Klingons. May be not as pure defenders, but I dont see why they should just fight to-..... fight without reason just to "not live in peace".

Going from the "The Klingons can not live in peace and always need war" idea: that doesnt make sense to and never made, and I think thats not how Klingons were portayed.
Look at Star Trek 6, those Klingons hat more then just "fighting fighting fighting" in mind.
Yes there were forces, like Chang, working AGAINST the peace, but in the Federation happened the same.

And honestly, if the Klingons were that way we couldnt have had next to a century of peace. If they were that way they would be like a rabildly dog that just can be put asleep, a danger to everyone including themselfes.
I can see J'mpok SEEING the Klingons that way, since he is a jerk, but not them BEING that way.

Yes they ARE focussed on fighting, but thats not all.

Just a thought while we are at it:

Why not an STF dealing with the end of the war?
May be Klingons that are want peace, unitet with the federation, fighting J'mpok and his minions.... with undine or an Iconians as "final boss" as beeing the once behind that war...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
12-07-2011, 03:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
Well the J'mpok = Undine plot is as uncreative as it can get, but thats why I fits prefectly into that lazy STO background plot.
And, for me, the main aspect is "bringing it to a closure", for all that matters he can stuble over his coat and brake his neck or die of a heart attack. Main thing: He is gone. I just dont like him and what he stands for.



Actually, I dont see why the later mentionet aproach needs to be a new tradition, that is prety much how I see the Klingons. May be not as pure defenders, but I dont see why they should just fight to-..... fight without reason just to "not live in peace".

Going from the "The Klingons can not live in peace and always need war" idea: that doesnt make sense to and never made, and I think thats not how Klingons were portayed.
Look at Star Trek 6, those Klingons hat more then just "fighting fighting fighting" in mind.
Yes there were forces, like Chang, working AGAINST the peace, but in the Federation happened the same.

And honestly, if the Klingons were that way we couldnt have had next to a century of peace. If they were that way they would be like a rabildly dog that just can be put asleep, a danger to everyone including themselfes.
I can see J'mpok SEEING the Klingons that way, since he is a jerk, but not them BEING that way.

Yes they ARE focussed on fighting, but thats not all.

Just a thought while we are at it:

Why not an STF dealing with the end of the war?
May be Klingons that are want peace, unitet with the federation, fighting J'mpok and his minions.... with undine or an Iconians as "final boss" as beeing the once behind that war...
I think it was actually TNG and DS9 that seemed to make Klingons into war-focused. It was all about Honor and Glory, and it's clear the houses form a nobility that rul es mostly non-warriors.

I mean, in some ways, the TNG and DS9 attempts to build up the Klingon mythology and culture was interesting and well done. But overall I kinda feel it doesn't lead to a believable, working culture. And it conflicts heavily with the TOS series and TOS movie Klingons. They were expansionists, yes - but the Klingons were not depicted like "honorable warriors" at all. They were ambitious, brutal, expansionists that were willing to use covert agents and subterfuge to achieve their goals. The leaders were ruthless and intelligent, calculating. MOst of this seems to have gone in TNG.

I preferred the John M. Ford Klingons...

[/digressing]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
12-07-2011, 04:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I think it was actually TNG and DS9 that seemed to make Klingons into war-focused. It was all about Honor and Glory, and it's clear the houses form a nobility that rul es mostly non-warriors.

I mean, in some ways, the TNG and DS9 attempts to build up the Klingon mythology and culture was interesting and well done. But overall I kinda feel it doesn't lead to a believable, working culture. And it conflicts heavily with the TOS series and TOS movie Klingons. They were expansionists, yes - but the Klingons were not depicted like "honorable warriors" at all. They were ambitious, brutal, expansionists that were willing to use covert agents and subterfuge to achieve their goals. The leaders were ruthless and intelligent, calculating. MOst of this seems to have gone in TNG.

I preferred the John M. Ford Klingons...

[/digressing]
Well in TNG we only saw one aspect of the Klingon society, the military.
And honestly... Yes, they are shown as focussed of conflict, but not on fighting for the reason of fighting. Not as animals, like STO wants to portray them.

And well... between TOS and the TOS movies alone there were a lot of changing about them.
In TOS the had next to no own profile... they were just dirty looking brutal criminal bad guys.
Klingons = evil.
Whenever Klingons were mentionet the viewer was supposed to recognize at once "The bad guys are doing bad things there".
The whole honor-thing was romunlan, not Klingon.

My "favorites" where always the ST6 Klingons, they had the "Honor" tradition, they were intelligent, eloquent but still had clearly the "warrior" aspects.
They had common ground with the "Federation" but still were diffrent. Thats how I like the Klingons the most.
But still, even if a lot of that is lost in TNG/DS9, they are not entirely stupid space orks that make war just for that sake of having war.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
12-07-2011, 05:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
Going from the "The Klingons can not live in peace and always need war" idea: that doesnt make sense to and never made, and I think thats not how Klingons were portayed.
Look at Star Trek 6, those Klingons hat more then just "fighting fighting fighting" in mind.
Yes there were forces, like Chang, working AGAINST the peace, but in the Federation happened the same.
In general, I think there's an idea throughout Trek that no Klingon actually adheres to their rhetoric. I'd use a specific religious analogy or political but I'm sure that would be contentious and wind up skirting the forum rules.

Basically, as I see it, the Klingons have set teachings. No Klingon actually wants to follow all of those teachings but they try to rationalize and justify their own behavior as being in accordance with their teachings and traditions.

Sure, you have that with Worf and Martok but I think you also have that with Gowron, Chang, and literally every Klingon we've seen for more than sixty seconds as far as I can recall, including the admittedlymore aggressive TOS ones.

I think this is an essential part of how we're meant to connect with Klingons. They have these grand rules, this epic, poetic language. But, like many systems used by modern humans, they aren't rules that anyone can ever even remotely live by.

The point is not that they are ACTUALLY warriors or space vikings but that they are required to present themselves and justify their actions as somehow making them warriors or space vikings.

Similarly, the Ferengi are not inherently capitalist at the genetic level. They have all the same emotions, needs, and desires as anyone else. Bok wanted revenge. Quark valued respect and family. Rom valued love and fairness. However, they are required to justify their actions and feelings in compliance with a hyper-capitalist code of ethics.

That's the fundamental thing that distinguishes Klingons from orcs and elves in a bad fantasy RPG. The RPG mentality at its worst tells us that species traits are the result of genetic determinism and borders on promoting the eugenic determinism that fueled the greatest travesties of the 20th century. In Star Trek, races don't have actual traits although most CLAIM to. Instead, cultures have traits and people of all species attempt to conform themselves to those traits in order to act as a representative of their culture.

For example: Vulcans. They are deeply ashamed and wary of emotion and with good reason. Emotion, as they see it, led to massive needless death and strife in their own culture. They HAVE emotions but tend to protest that they don't. They aren't biologically without emotion but rather control and suppress their emotions; there may be a biological ability to do that which gives them an edge in that given the very rigid seven year timeline of Ponn Farr but their emotionless approach is a deliberate choice.

Klingons have great strength and prowess and adrenaline. However, I think it's essential to understand that they aren't a warrior race (the notion itself is racist) but rather a warrior culture in which individual members apply great effort to apply themselves to that mold.

Klingons don't biologically need violence or war. Their culture demands it and though they don't want it any more than humans or Vulcans, they are bound to reconcile their essentially human nature with what their teachings require of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
12-07-2011, 05:25 AM
In particular, I think we see more examples of Klingons using their teachings to avoid war than using them to justify war.

Present the average Klingon with a way to justify being a "greater warrior" while avoiding conflict and he's going to avoid the conflict unless he wants it for personal reasons, much like Bok can likely rationalize his need for revenge as a capitalist exchange of son for son or Spock can justify his mis-truths as something other than lying.

In Star Trek, everyone is essentially human on a psychological level but still tries to rationalize how they are something else in order to better live up to their code of beliefs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
12-07-2011, 09:22 AM
Sphere builders!

I know Enterprise is the black sheep of Star Trek, but the whole temporal cold war was quite interesting.

The sphere builders could have a whole story line introduced, and the timing of which is best suited to around 2409 and the build up to the battle of Procyon V.
Obviously they failed in their attempts to introduce the delphic expanse into a much older time period, but now they could have a much smaller version put in their own system/sector.
With this you could also introduce the Xindi.
Several missions and stories later you could end up with an STF which involves shooting down several spheres inside a small delphic expanse with Xindi ships or even a whole lot of new ships for the Sphere Builders.. an stf with the ui effects that have been used before in the Romulan FE.

So you can introduce new characters, new species etc etc
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68 what I "Want"....
12-07-2011, 09:48 AM
I want an STF that grants an AMBASSADOR CLASS STARSHIP!!! That's what I want. I'll never see it, but I still keep holding out hope!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
12-07-2011, 10:06 AM
You know, a lot of good thoughts on who should be the next enemy for new STF's, but ultimately I am left asking the question not why storyline wise they would make great enemies, because just about any enemy group could make a great enemy for an STF, but how would that enemy bring unique gameplay elements to the mission. Currently each STF is built around a few key elements that make the gameplay. The Cure ground mission is all about lowering the forcefields using the pylons, KA space is all about stopping ships from going through the gateway while at the same time destroying the transwarp gateways.

So, what kind of gameplay would each enemy bring?

The Tholians I think are obvious, any STF would have to revolve around the Tholian web, maybe a mission where you have to attempt to beam up prisoners from other ships while simultaneously trying ot avoid getting cought in the web yourself? Maybe a mission where you have to rescue NPC ships from the web, which in turn will fight along side you, but simultaneously more and more Tholian ships will warp in, so if you don't destroy the tholians fast enough and/or free allied ships fast enough, you will get overwhelmed.

What about making a competetive PvE STF centered around the klingon conflict. Center it around an unallied alien world under threat from some other enemy, two teams, one FED and one Klingon zone in and are tasked with completing a number of tasks as the timer counts down to enemy arrival. Whoever completes the most tasks wins. This could include a new building minigame, transport supplies from planet to defense posts, clean up orbital debris, and so on. As a team you could complete these tasks and/or try and interfere with the other teams ability to complete these tasks. In the end everyone is rewarded, but the team with the higher score earns greater rewards.

As for a ground option, I would love to see an STF built around a defense style game. Maybe you have to hold a fort against some alien threat (Pretty much any enemy would work) you could directly fight yourself, or run around activating turrets that fight for you, you could do tasks that give you bonuses or the enemy penalties.

There are tons of great ideas, just about any enemy group could work for an STF, I am more interested in how these STFs will be made fun, becaus while the current STFs are fun, they are limited and will get old quickly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
12-07-2011, 10:08 AM
Also, on a side note: Currently the ground STFs just drop you in on the ground. It would be nice story wise if instead you started in a transporter room where there was a mini briefing prior to beaming down/over to the mission. Of course, this is largely an atmosphere thing and I suppose it could get old after a while considering how many times you have to play some of these STFs to get any of the gear.
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