Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 161
12-10-2011, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedShirtJohnson
just to point you in a direction of my train of thought.

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/State-Law-Summary/

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-ca...-card-1282.php

Note the bit in the first link about "chance"

"Dominant Factor Test Applied: "Chance" is one of the elements generally required to be present in order for a game to violate a state anti-gambling statute. Most states have concluded that where the elements of skill, whatever they may be, predominate over the elements of chance, whatever they may be, in determining outcome, then the "chance" element is lacking and the game involved does not violate that state's anti-gambling law. This question considers whether the state applies this "dominant factor," or predominance, test."

The Lottery Boxes have no level of Skill to them. they are solely chance items and would violate the Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act (UIGEA) of 2006.
Dabo might also classify as a violations of said Act.

This is not gambling, this is not a lottery. There is NO chance of losing. You cannot pay your 100cp and open a box and get NOTHING. The "payout" is 100%, you always get something for your money. That's like buying cereal for the prize and suing because you got another temporary tattoo when the box "clearly" shows you have a chance at winning a matchbox car.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 162
12-10-2011, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBFLordKrueg View Post
Wow, California doesn't have a State Lottery? I live in Florida and not only does it have a State sponsered lottery (for years), there are all manner of small lotteries with scratch off tickets, etc. Most states I know of participate in a huge lottery called Powerball usually with 3-5 states pooling at a time.
None of them are non profit....they've even come under fire as of late because the money that supposed to come out of those pools for education, (that's how they passed it, we'll give a percentage to education) roads, etc seems disproportunate to how much they're taking in.
That and it's come out some officials are make huge salaries and doing very little...
Imagine that, corruption and mismanagement of gambling winnings...

Donno...so many other things are different out in California, guess there's another thing...
The California State lottery is explicitly authorized by the constitution and is the only allowed form of lottery and cannot be regulated by the legislature through the passage of State laws.

Raffles for non profits are also allowed as they are not considered lotteries.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 163
12-10-2011, 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenEricII

This is not gambling, this is not a lottery. There is NO chance of losing. You cannot pay your 100cp and open a box and get NOTHING. The "payout" is 100%, you always get something for your money. That's like buying cereal for the prize and suing because you got another temporary tattoo when the box "clearly" shows you have a chance at winning a matchbox car.

A lottery is composed of three elements:

1. A prize
2. Payment of consideration to be eligible to win a prize
3. Distribution of the prize by chance

http://www.dca.ca.gov/publications/sweep.shtml
Now, look at California penal code section 319 and tell me where it is implied that simply by guaranteeing some form of prize to all contestants you exempt yourself from rules outlawing lotteries?

In a trading card grab bag you are always guaranteed a prize yet that is considered an illegal lottery under penal code section 319.2

I quote:
A lottery is any scheme for the disposal or distribution of
property by chance, among persons who have paid or promised to pay
any valuable consideration for the chance of obtaining such property
or a portion of it, or for any share or any interest in such
property, upon any agreement, understanding, or expectation that it
is to be distributed or disposed of by lot or chance, whether called
a lottery, raffle, or gift enterprise, or by whatever name the same
may be known.
I can only assume Cryptic's lawyers advised them that they would argue that in-game assets do not constitute property and that the potential revenue would far exceed the potential liability if they were sued or prosecuted, but of course, I was not there and I do not know.

What I do know is that if you are concerned about Cryptic selling what essentially amounts to a lottery ticket to win a virtual ship without disclosing the odds of winning that ship, you should file a complaint here:

http://ag.ca.gov/contact/complaint_form.php?cmplt=CL
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 164
12-10-2011, 02:35 PM
The one tiny upside to all this is that it showed that we would definitely be interested in using other factions. Besides that, all this has done is remind the community to never bet without knowing the odds. Hopefully this game lasts long enough that we can all fly this ship for the Dominion faction!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 165
12-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Im cancelling my Boys sub, i dont want to be ear bashed that he wants the ship and end up maybe paying a fortune.

If this was a C-Store item costing a price then i would think about letting him have it, but for him to say 'no it can cost anything Dad, pay for a box and you may not even get it' then i have to say no as this is the obvious way they are going forward now, now how do i tell him that huh Cryptic?

Only way would be is to cancel mine too, nice one real nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 166
12-10-2011, 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fewzz View Post
Im cancelling my Boys sub, i dont want to be ear bashed that he wants the ship and end up maybe paying a fortune.

If this was a C-Store item costing a price then i would think about letting him have it, but for him to say 'no it can cost anything Dad, pay for a box and you may not even get it' then i have to say no as this is the obvious way they are going forward now, now how do i tell him that huh Cryptic?

Only way would be is to cancel mine too, nice one real nice.
Let me get this straight.

Instead of telling your son, "No, it could cost too much, daddy's already paying your subscription anyway, sorry," you're going to cancel his sub completely and deprive him of the entire game?

Does this strike anyone else as strange...?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 167
12-10-2011, 03:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fewzz View Post
Im cancelling my Boys sub, i dont want to be ear bashed that he wants the ship and end up maybe paying a fortune.

If this was a C-Store item costing a price then i would think about letting him have it, but for him to say 'no it can cost anything Dad, pay for a box and you may not even get it' then i have to say no as this is the obvious way they are going forward now, now how do i tell him that huh Cryptic?

Only way would be is to cancel mine too, nice one real nice.
Harsh

I simply told my son that he couldn't buy any of the boxes because he probably wouldn't win it and to wait until it was on the C store. However he told me it looked rubbish anyway, he's nearly 8 years old.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 168
12-10-2011, 03:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexsam View Post
Let me get this straight.

Instead of telling your son, "No, it could cost too much, daddy's already paying your subscription anyway, sorry," you're going to cancel his sub completely and deprive him of the entire game?

Does this strike anyone else as strange...?
I'd say unless he wants to prepare his child for a career in thimblerigging it's, seeing the way STO is going, quite reasonable to cancel the sub.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 169
12-10-2011, 04:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
Actually no, neither of those apply. This is not a contest under State law because there is no skill involved. This is not a sweepstakes under State law because sweepstakes must be open to the public with no purchase required to enter.

What this most resembles is a lottery, which is an illegal (unless it is a charity raffle for a non-profit) scheme in which people pay money for a chance to win prizes, including grab-bags of trading cards.

My guess is that Cryptic's lawyers are betting that the State Attorney General will not consider online "goods" as property and therefore the laws against lotteries would not apply.

However, if you do think this is a lottery, my suggestion would be to file a complaint with the California Attorney General.

http://ag.ca.gov/contact/complaint_form.php?cmplt=CL
Or better yet, I suggest complaining to CBS, who owns and licenses the IP . I'm not too sure how keen they would be to a virtual equivalent of a Star Trek scratch ticket....
Virtual prizes or not, this is gambling, plain and simple.
My instincts tell me that this crosses the line. This is a game children play too. Star Trek has always been about family entertainment. Gambling, in any way, any form, is NOT a family activity.

I'll say it again, there was absolutely no reason whatsoever that this ship couldn't have been put in the
C store, (they would have made a boat load this way too), other than the fact that Cryptic anticipated all the hoopla, the impulsive behavior associated with gambling and the ensuing all out cash grab.
Doing it this way doesn't protect the IP at all, I don't buy that explanation for one minute.
I can't see how they could have perceived this "lottery" as something that would be well received positively by the MAJORITY of "loosers".

I'm sorry, but to me this is keeping in step with a lot of what season 5 has had to offer so far, lots of carrots dangled on the end of lots of sticks, with sticky strings attached right to the C store.
The length of the sticks have been growing significantly, but in this case real money supposedly improves your chances. Especially as this is a limited time event.

The real ****** part of this situation is that no one really knows what the chances were/are and there in lies the Achilles heal. If they were going to charge real money for a "chance", they should have been more upfront with the actual odds.

So I'll ask again Cryptic, what were the odds, one in what?

The only save in my mind, would be to offer the ship as an unlock to those that have spent over 2000 Cryptic points on the "chance" . Cryptic would still keep the profits and people would get what they had hoped for. Call it a gift of conscience.
Then put the ship in the C store for at least 2000 points.
Those who do not wish to spend the money can grind dilithium, do the Winter wonderland race, or spend energy credits for the gift boxes currently on the exchange for a chance.

That would be the thing to do in the spirit of goodwill and Christmas and they would still make a bundle on it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 170
12-10-2011, 04:05 PM
Well tbh we both spoke about and this is the way its going were pretty excited now to go off and discover another game to get into together.

I simply can not afford to spend that sort of money and maybe not even end up with the ship, and to do the same for my boy as well? no chance.

We gave it one bash just now, another 2000cp, still nothing. hard to imagine these ones that say they got it on the first box.
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