Go Back   Star Trek Online > Feedback > C-Store, ZEN, and Promotions
Login

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
12-10-2011, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir.Bud View Post
Pretty sure the gov't won't care because no money is up for grabs (i.e. no cash prizes)....the only thing you can win are pixels. Also, you can get a chance to win the ship by running laps at Q's Wonderland.....for free!
I think your reasoning is pretty unsound because under that logic, I could hold a lottery for say, the rights to intellectual property (say the royalties for a famous song) worth $1 million in order to avoid State law prohibiting holding a lottery for property. After all, the rights to intellectual property are just some pixels in a scanned and notarized document.

In California, in order to constitute a sweepstakes those who do not pay any money are required to have an equal chance of winning so it is clearly not a sweepstakes seeing as someone who "runs a lap" does not have an equal chance of wining the prize so that whole line of reasoning is fallacious.



I am not saying that I have the answer as to whether this is legal (I doubt anyone does since I doubt the relevant courts have ever ruled on a similar case) or not but I am stating that your line of reasoning is erroneous.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
12-11-2011, 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varlo
Once again, from the item description in the C-Store:

"Buy a Winter Package to give to a friend, or open it yourself to get one of the following tradable items:

Unique Jem'Hadar Attack Ship
Faction-appropriate Duty Officer Pack
Holographic Science Bridge Officer
8-hour XP Boost
Gekli Space Pet
Targ Pup Pet (Klingon Empire characters only)
Exocomp Pet (Starfleet characters only
Eisilum Crystal Horta Ally
Polytrinic Acid Horta Ally
Holographic Tribble
1-hour XP Boost
Blue Winter Package with a space or ground weapon and holiday crafting materials"


Now if you don't feel you've enough information there to make an informed decision over buying this thing or not, I'd urge you not to buy it.

As I've stated previoulsy, you will always advertise your top prize in things like these. The odds of winning a prize are roughly about 400%, because (in all the boxes I've opened in winter Wonderland) four items have been "won". The odds of winning the top prize are always going to be significantly less.

All common sense really, just a shame such a large number of gamers never covered a lot of maths at School or never went at all.

I got 8 hour boost in my first buy, I think that is great, actually I'm very happy with the entire situaition. I would love the Jem ship but the items details are clearly stated. We get one out of the list. 1 brain cell is needed to know I could get the 8 hour boost 3 times out of 10 and never get the ship once.

I do not believe Cryptic are ripping anyone off, I believe they are ethical.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
12-11-2011, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
State lotteries disclose the exact odds of winning. Certainly they prey on the ignorant and the poor, but at least the consumer has the opportunity to make an informed choice.
I understand and acknowledge that, but the odds are not on the ticket for online lotteries and its entirely possible (and probable) for someone to buy lottery tickets for years and never stumble upon the sheet that shows the odds for winning. The states that run the lottery expect with a "reasonable persons" logic that people will never enquire on the odds of winning, nor being aware that there are acutall odds of winning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
12-11-2011, 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
In a few weeks when I have some extra time, I am going to make some inquiries to some friends who specialize in these sorts of cases. They have the knowledge, experience, and access to do case-law research that I do not.

The problem with cases like this, especially involving new media and services such as MMO's is that there are probably very few if any decisions relating to a situation like this that ever reached the 9th circuit court or the California Supreme Court. These things tend to be settled out of court with neither side admitting fault.
I wish you the best of luck. (I wont give you the odds of winning .........<groaner....>)

As far as MMO's being uncharted territory, at leas in the U.S., the will use common law and find legal precedent of something similar, but in a slightly different field, such as mail order and the sort. I'm sure it would go to the state CA. Supreme Court before it goes to the 9th Circus, and thats a good thing. The 9th has a higher percentage of decisions overturned than the other districts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
12-11-2011, 08:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
You do not have to be a California resident.

If you feel that failing to disclose the odds is a deceptive business practice or constitutes a lottery (which is a criminal act in California) you can file a complaint quickly and easily here:

http://ag.ca.gov/contact/complaint_form.php?cmplt=CL

If enough people file a complaint, there will probably at least be an investigation into whether these grab bags violate State laws against lotteries or constitute an unfair or misleading business practice.
Yes, but for a California court to have jurisdiction, one of the two parties (or the actual act itself)must be in California, otherwise it goes to a residing jurisdiction or the Federal system.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
12-11-2011, 08:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by McCooey View Post
Dunno thats why it would be good to have the odds of winning. it may not be broken at all but there is a point were a deminishing return comes into play because unlike a lottery you don't loose you just don't get what you want. I do have a heap of exocomps and horta that i can give away for nothing on the exchange, I have duty officers which mean i won't be buying off the c-store etc etc

there has to be a balance where i don't get what i want too easily but i don't start winning enough of the other high end rare consumable items that i stop having the need to buy them off the c-store i.e. xp boost
If I understand what you are saying, that "nobody loses", that is sort of what I was saying. I was also suggesting that the amount of "dung beetles" that I have seen also suggests that the system isnt broken, ships have been handed out, so that prize is out there and people have recieved them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
12-11-2011, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
I think your reasoning is pretty unsound because under that logic, I could hold a lottery for say, the rights to intellectual property (say the royalties for a famous song) worth $1 million in order to avoid State law prohibiting holding a lottery for property. After all, the rights to intellectual property are just some pixels in a scanned and notarized document.

In California, in order to constitute a sweepstakes those who do not pay any money are required to have an equal chance of winning so it is clearly not a sweepstakes seeing as someone who "runs a lap" does not have an equal chance of wining the prize so that whole line of reasoning is fallacious.



I am not saying that I have the answer as to whether this is legal (I doubt anyone does since I doubt the relevant courts have ever ruled on a similar case) or not but I am stating that your line of reasoning is erroneous.
But the intellectual property has an actual dollar value assigned to it. As of yet, the dung beetle has yet to have a real value attached to it. It can be assumed that it would be 2,000 c-store points, but it could also be 800. It could be a limited value ship that will never be offered to the public via the c-store, people might earn it later. In a court, there does have to be an attached equivalent value attached to it in order for any contract to fulfill its "mirror value" of a deal, be it one penny or one million dollars.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
12-11-2011, 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Yes, but for a California court to have jurisdiction, one of the two parties (or the actual act itself)must be in California, otherwise it goes to a residing jurisdiction or the Federal system.
Cryptic is located in Los Gatos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
If I understand what you are saying, that "nobody loses", that is sort of what I was saying.
This is patently untrue. While Cryptic claims that the average retail "value" of the prize is 115 CP, many of the packages also contain a blue package, which has no retail value. So, while the law of large numbers guarantees that if you play an infinite amount of times you will eventually get an average positive retail "value" return, it is entirely possible to play a smaller number of times (say ten or twenty) and get nothing of retail "value" in return.

So at best you have a lottery that has a positive rate of return instead of a negative one, but it is still a lottery and you could still wind up with nothing (and of course, this requires assuming that the retail "value" should be considered the true value and ignoring the fact that this lottery is promoting and being played mainly on the basis of winning the ship).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
12-12-2011, 10:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sakarak
Cryptic is located in Los Gatos.



This is patently untrue. While Cryptic claims that the average retail "value" of the prize is 115 CP, many of the packages also contain a blue package, which has no retail value. So, while the law of large numbers guarantees that if you play an infinite amount of times you will eventually get an average positive retail "value" return, it is entirely possible to play a smaller number of times (say ten or twenty) and get nothing of retail "value" in return.

So at best you have a lottery that has a positive rate of return instead of a negative one, but it is still a lottery and you could still wind up with nothing (and of course, this requires assuming that the retail "value" should be considered the true value and ignoring the fact that this lottery is promoting and being played mainly on the basis of winning the ship).
First, I would argue that it isn't "patently" (obviously) untrue. To you, it might be untre, but that doesn't reasonably make it obvious to the rest of the world .

You recieved nothing from a blue package? One of the four box's I had was blue. From that box I got an 8 hour xp boost that is ,what, an 160 cp item?? So what are you arguing that the retail true value of the boxes actually is?

Also, has anyone ACTUALLY asked for the odds from Cryptic???

Also, has Brendan noticed this thread?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
12-12-2011, 10:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whamhammer View Post
Also, has anyone ACTUALLY asked for the odds from Cryptic???
There have been numerous posts and threads asking Cryptic for the odds of winning the JH ship. I think the issue of the odds not being posted anywhere is what's getting to a lot of people.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:45 PM.