Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 611 Re:
03-23-2012, 02:00 PM
Thanks Shook-Yang for your reply! I was kind of thinking along the same lines as it would be ok, but cannons would still be better. This was just something I was thinking of playing around with
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 612
03-23-2012, 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hapiface View Post
Thanks Shook-Yang for your reply! I was kind of thinking along the same lines as it would be ok, but cannons would still be better. This was just something I was thinking of playing around with
It's certainly fun for a 1 on 1 battle. I have yet to try it in a bigger PvP match.

Either way, I didn't really care for the all beam boat in an elite STF run.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 613
03-23-2012, 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringram View Post
I am doing elite runs with a combat parser running throughout. So far it looks like having 2 torpedo launchers with 3 Purple PWOs is a waste. I will know more tonight, probably tomorrow. I am testing a couple of different configs.

edited to add: I am using a combat parser that is giving me raw average DPS numbers. Is there a way I can tell what spike damage is- other than mousing over the toolbar?
The question is, are you seeing your numbers staying the same? If you are, it means that the purple DOFF's are working, your torpedo DPS is up, and of course your cannon DPS is down since you have one less. If your DPS is staying the same, that means this is a "success", it may be that your torpedo DPS has indeed gone up enough to match the fact that your cannon DPS has gone down.

The only surefire way to tell if this increases torpedo DPS only by having 3 purple DOFF's and going from one to two torpedo launchers would be to remove all but the one or two torpedo launchers and test it under controlled, repeatable conditions. A possible way I have thought to do this, there is a player created series of missions, made by "The Grand Nagus" (just search under name nagus) called "Station Supply". These have optional space combat (you can just fly around the enemies). The first group is 3 frigates, the second, one cruiser, the last, one battleship, all in predictable spots waiting for you to attack. The idea is first, to find the version (there are perhaps 6 different versions with 6 different kindís of enemy) which is not the Romulan battleship, which tends toward sudden and unpredictable moves at you and which uses high yield plasma torps. You want one of the slow and steady battleships that just sits there and lets you beat on it. You choose the battleship (between the second and third station) because it will last longer, and you will probably want elite mode, also so it will last longer. The you go at that sucker at long range, preferable the same range each time, so that it's maneuvers will not skew the test (and so its weapons won't kill you, it could be a long fight). Now you equip 3 purple DOFFs and just one torpedo launcher and no other weapons, and fire away for a while. Then, later, repeat with two torpedo launchers, and if that resulted in double the DPS, 3, or even 4. You are looking for the point at which adding another launcher does not increase DPS. That will be the point where your purple DOFFs have increased firing rate so much that adding another launcher does not result in more torpedoes coming out the front end. It may be that going from one to two launchers does not double torpedo DPS but does result in more DPS, that would mean that the maximum fire rate is somewhere between 1 and 2. Alternately, I suppose, adding another launcher might always increase DPS, even up to 4 launchers, which would mean that our understanding of how they fire needs to change. Basically, if we have one torpedo launcher, and we then try again with two and see double the DPS, we then try with 3 to see if we have triple, etc, wherever we do not see a multiple of the single launchers DPS is where we have reached maximum firing rate.

Now that we know how to maximize firing rate for torpedoes, we will know how many launchers to bring. If, say, it is more than one but less then two (where in the above test adding a second launcher increases DPS but does not double it), then we ask, does adding the second launcher result in overall significantly lower DPS due to not having a cannon? If DPS breaks even, if losing one cannon is matched by gaining more torpedo DPS, then we can go with one launcher versus cannon friendly targets, and two versus torpedo friendly targets, like gates and the like (stuff without shields). We would thus change our loadout depending on the expected targets. Thus, while in some STF's our DPS will only go up some due to having 3 purple DOFFs, DPS might go up even more in torpedo friendly STF's using two launchers.

Idea, with two torpedo launchers, you have one less cannon sucking power, in theory, you could then switch to regular dual cannons on one or both cannon spots since you have more power to work with. This could result in more shield stripping power to make up for less shield stripping power of torpedoes. It can also result in more DPS from such things as directed energy modulation, which really needs fast shooting cannons to work. It might also help tachyon beam to drain shields faster, I think (not necessarily better, but faster).

The good news, with 3 purple DOFf's. you have increased your torpedo DPS with one launcher, so at least some DPS is gained for sure.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 614
03-23-2012, 07:17 PM
The numbers I'm seeing are not the same. So far, adding a second torpedo launcher does not appear to be better than a third Dual Heavy Cannon. They way I'm doing it isn't all that exact. The parser that I'm using just gives time elapsed and total damage. I do all three space STFs on elite and then average the numbers. All it gives me is raw DPS. What I'd like to know is what the spike damage is, how often its' criting, how much it's criting for. The best way would probably be to find a way to be able to fire on a target ship at a fixed distance.

My Commander Tac has Cannon Scatter Volley III and Torpedo Spread III. I started with 2 torpedo launchers, two dual heavy cannons, 3 turrets and my Lt Commander Tac trained in Torpedo Spread II and four cannon consoles. Then I tried it with Cannon Scatter Volley 1. Of those two CSV1 gave me more overall dps. So I tried taking out one of the cannon consoles and replacing it with a torpedo console. That actually made the DPS worse. I wondered, and I may have asked, if it would be better to have two torpedo consoles with two torpedo launchers. I didn't find an answer and haven't tried it
So far the highest overall DPS comes from 1 Torpedo Launcher, 1 Quantum Torpedo console, with cannon scatter volley 1.
Tonight I'm going to try it without the PWOs to see what happens.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 615
03-23-2012, 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringram View Post
The numbers I'm seeing are not the same. So far, adding a second torpedo launcher does not appear to be better than a third Dual Heavy Cannon. They way I'm doing it isn't all that exact. The parser that I'm using just gives time elapsed and total damage. I do all three space STFs on elite and then average the numbers. All it gives me is raw DPS. What I'd like to know is what the spike damage is, how often its' criting, how much it's criting for. The best way would probably be to find a way to be able to fire on a target ship at a fixed distance.

My Commander Tac has Cannon Scatter Volley III and Torpedo Spread III. I started with 2 torpedo launchers, two dual heavy cannons, 3 turrets and my Lt Commander Tac trained in Torpedo Spread II and four cannon consoles. Then I tried it with Cannon Scatter Volley 1. Of those two CSV1 gave me more overall dps. So I tried taking out one of the cannon consoles and replacing it with a torpedo console. That actually made the DPS worse. I wondered, and I may have asked, if it would be better to have two torpedo consoles with two torpedo launchers. I didn't find an answer and haven't tried it
So far the highest overall DPS comes from 1 Torpedo Launcher, 1 Quantum Torpedo console, with cannon scatter volley 1.
Tonight I'm going to try it without the PWOs to see what happens.
Would be nice to report the overall DPS numbers over the trhee runs if you could, so maybe we can get an idea of how things are changing. Alsdo, 4 cannon consols, no torp consol might be why you got low DPS with two torpedo launchers. The original guy tried two launchers and two consols and had a little over 4k DPS reported, however, he had an odd setup with a ragular dual cannon and a dual beam up front.

Eventiually, you will have all the gear you need for all tests, like two launchers with two torpedo consols etc.

Very interested in, with one launcher and 3 officers how your DPS changes without the officers.
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Posts: 120
# 616
03-23-2012, 08:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilus1
Would be nice to report the overall DPS numbers over the trhee runs if you could, so maybe we can get an idea of how things are changing. Alsdo, 4 cannon consols, no torp consol might be why you got low DPS with two torpedo launchers. The original guy tried two launchers and two consols and had a little over 4k DPS reported, however, he had an odd setup with a ragular dual cannon and a dual beam up front.

Eventiually, you will have all the gear you need for all tests, like two launchers with two torpedo consols etc.

Very interested in, with one launcher and 3 officers how your DPS changes without the officers.
So far (rounded to whole number):

2 torps w/TS21, 4 AP Cannon consoles- 3464
2 torps w/CSV2, 4 AP Cannon consoles- 3843
2 torps w/CSV2, 1 Quantum Torp console- 3114
1 torp w/CSV2, 1 Quantum Torp console- 4073

I may actually try 2 torps w/ 2 consoles and see what happens.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 617
03-24-2012, 08:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bringram View Post
So far (rounded to whole number):

2 torps w/TS21, 4 AP Cannon consoles- 3464
2 torps w/CSV2, 4 AP Cannon consoles- 3843
2 torps w/CSV2, 1 Quantum Torp console- 3114
1 torp w/CSV2, 1 Quantum Torp console- 4073

I may actually try 2 torps w/ 2 consoles and see what happens.
From what I understand, to get the three purple DOFFs to proc at the start, you are supposes to need something that fires multiple torpedoes, like TS or spread. especially at the start of the fight. it can be hard to get a really good 3 version of such, however, it is now possible to get spread 3 from the 2800 series that gives a bridge officer, you can do it once, us him to train one of your officers, then do it again and either keep that guy or use him to train another officer, and thus have two copies of spread 3. If you don't have any 3 version of something already you might ttry this. A current build using this involves beta 3, spread by two copies of CSV1, followed by two copies of spread 3 (and most just use one launcher). You might try this with one launcher and one module, and two launchers and two modules, IF getting spread 3 does not overwrite some other 3 power you need to keep, otherwise, you might try just one spread 3 and say a 2 or 1 just to see what happens.

Also, you should be alble to notice when you have the 3 purple officers on space duty that your torpedo icon lights up more often saying it is ready to fire again, which should tell you that the officers at least are working. That way, you will know how to get them working and whether you even need to use a multi torpedo power to start it off.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 618
03-24-2012, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilus1
From what I understand, to get the three purple DOFFs to proc at the start, you are supposes to need something that fires multiple torpedoes, like TS or spread. especially at the start of the fight. it can be hard to get a really good 3 version of such, however, it is now possible to get spread 3 from the 2800 series that gives a bridge officer, you can do it once, us him to train one of your officers, then do it again and either keep that guy or use him to train another officer, and thus have two copies of spread 3. If you don't have any 3 version of something already you might ttry this. A current build using this involves beta 3, spread by two copies of CSV1, followed by two copies of spread 3 (and most just use one launcher). You might try this with one launcher and one module, and two launchers and two modules, IF getting spread 3 does not overwrite some other 3 power you need to keep, otherwise, you might try just one spread 3 and say a 2 or 1 just to see what happens.

Also, you should be alble to notice when you have the 3 purple officers on space duty that your torpedo icon lights up more often saying it is ready to fire again, which should tell you that the officers at least are working. That way, you will know how to get them working and whether you even need to use a multi torpedo power to start it off.
My Commander Tac has CSV3 and TS3 (from the the 2800 series). I haven't made any changes to my Commander Tac. The changes in BOFF abilities is coming from my Lt Commander Tac. I have noticed how fast the cd timer on torps is. But, I wasn't paying attention to it before the DOFFs were there. So I'm not sure how much of an effect they're having yet. All of this is in an AE with Tac Beam in the Sci Ens slot.
One path to better DPS may be the Defiant-R with its' Tac Ens slot. That would enable the rolling TS ability you're suggesting. Once I finish with the AE I may switch over to my defiant-R and see how that tunrs out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 619
03-27-2012, 04:33 PM
I wish I read this thread before I started making my escort build. The main problem I had was using plasma and probably my console choices. I think being a Sci Officer using a Defiant-R isn't helping matters either. I'm at work so I can't remember the full names. I can tank a tac cube only on normal for so long, but I don't understand why my escort takes all the fire while there are two other beam boats not even being touched.

Tetryon DHC XI Borg
Quantum XI Very Rare Crafted
Tetryon Turret XI Borg
Full Omega Set

Engineering Consoles
XI Ablative Hull Armor
Borg Assimilated
Gravion (sp?) Pulse Console

Science Console
I cant remember the name but it's the one that increases the Shield Emitters
Cloaking Device

Tactical
Tetyron Damage XI rare X3
Quantum Damage XI rare

BOFFs

Tactical Slot 1
Tac Team 1
THY2
CRF2
APO3

Tactical Slot 2
Torp Spread 1
CRF1
THY3

Tactical Slot 3
Tac Team 1

Engineering Slot
Emergency Power to Shields 1
Reverse Shield Polarity 1

Sci Slot
Hazard Emitters 1
Tractor Beam
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 620
03-27-2012, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by doctorbrainpoker
I can tank a tac cube only on normal for so long, but I don't understand why my escort takes all the fire while there are two other beam boats not even being touched.
Because DHCs (and the corresponding boff abilities) are really *that* good.
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