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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
12-24-2011, 07:09 AM
To entice new players to join in mass from January to F2P, Cryptic has decided to castrate, not literally but we're almost there, the old players who have invested so much time and CP to build one or more PGs almost invincible in ground and space.
They want to wink at the novices assuring them that they won't have to suffer the full force of more experienced players with skills focused on one type of combat.
But the choice to maximize the potential of a PG which pleases me more than others should be guaranteed to me by a game that I'm paying!
The result of this decision will be the certain abandonment of many PVPers skilled to perfection and the arrival, hoping Cryptic, a flood of noobs happy and excited to start all from the same basic, three quarters space and one quarter ground...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
12-28-2011, 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Starwrath
To entice new players to join in mass from January to F2P, Cryptic has decided to castrate, not literally but we're almost there, the old players who have invested so much time and CP to build one or more PGs almost invincible in ground and space.
They want to wink at the novices assuring them that they won't have to suffer the full force of more experienced players with skills focused on one type of combat.
But the choice to maximize the potential of a PG which pleases me more than others should be guaranteed to me by a game that I'm paying!
The result of this decision will be the certain abandonment of many PVPers skilled to perfection and the arrival, hoping Cryptic, a flood of noobs happy and excited to start all from the same basic, three quarters space and one quarter ground...
I think that sums it up quite nicely. Their logic is that its easier for players to compete when all the players have cookie-cutter builds.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
12-28-2011, 08:11 AM
Well lets see how the new f2p players handle it when they get trapped in 5 Gravity Wells, since that's now the cheapest and easiest Commander level Sci skill to spec into. Let alone the fact that Aftershock DOffs are quite easy to come by.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
12-28-2011, 08:37 AM
I tend to think 25% skill loss in space PvP will simply return PvP to the days of Season 1, because the skill point numbers will be about the same. In Season 1, three things mattered most:

1) Tactics. Today with everyone having skill points in everything, there is generally no incentive for group tactics or an understanding of STO PvP tactics. Note how the Fedball today is about pointless? There was never an evolution beyond the Fedball since Season 2 because Feds never needed to evolve tactically. In Season 1, there were a lot of tactics by Feds and Klingon fleets other than Fedballs and decloak alpha strikes, and I suspect we could start seeing tactics creep into PvP again for a change. It will start at the premade level and work down, as always.

2) Healers. Back in Season 1 Escorts would give up defense to keep peek offense, but they also spent more time working beside a healer. Healers were a big damn deal, and the good ones were easily the most popular players in PvP at the time. I note the game is still very OP towards Engineer Cruiser pilots, and that likely won't change with the new Enterprise coming. I suspect, and it is just a hunch, that a return to healer priority is going to be a positive thing for STO PvP in the long run, because working with a healer requires teamwork by both the healer, and the healed.

3) Nasty Science players. I'm talking about the Science Captain who is so good he makes everything the other team does seem ineffective. That's a lot harder today than it was back when people didn't have points in everything. Now, at some level, the skill point tree will be constricted in a way where something will be given up - and in many cases it will be defense against the confusion and chaos created by science ships. The best science captains will really stand out when they are restricted by skill point reductions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
12-29-2011, 02:01 AM
Quote:
I tend to think 25% skill loss in space PvP will simply return PvP to the days of Season 1, because the skill point numbers will be about the same. In Season 1, three things mattered most:

1) Tactics. Today with everyone having skill points in everything, there is generally no incentive for group tactics or an understanding of STO PvP tactics. Note how the Fedball today is about pointless? There was never an evolution beyond the Fedball since Season 2 because Feds never needed to evolve tactically. In Season 1, there were a lot of tactics by Feds and Klingon fleets other than Fedballs and decloak alpha strikes, and I suspect we could start seeing tactics creep into PvP again for a change. It will start at the premade level and work down, as always.

2) Healers. Back in Season 1 Escorts would give up defense to keep peek offense, but they also spent more time working beside a healer. Healers were a big damn deal, and the good ones were easily the most popular players in PvP at the time. I note the game is still very OP towards Engineer Cruiser pilots, and that likely won't change with the new Enterprise coming. I suspect, and it is just a hunch, that a return to healer priority is going to be a positive thing for STO PvP in the long run, because working with a healer requires teamwork by both the healer, and the healed.

3) Nasty Science players. I'm talking about the Science Captain who is so good he makes everything the other team does seem ineffective. That's a lot harder today than it was back when people didn't have points in everything. Now, at some level, the skill point tree will be constricted in a way where something will be given up - and in many cases it will be defense against the confusion and chaos created by science ships. The best science captains will really stand out when they are restricted by skill point reductions.
Season 1 was a different game because of a lot of factors - but I don't think the skill tree and the amount of skill points were the primary factor. The primary factor was how all those BO powers worked in the first place. Season 1 was still the time when Science Team was a strong shield resistance buff. Transfer Shield Strength and Auxillary to Dampeners were useless. Shields didn't get shield resistance from shield power, Emergency Powers cycled differently (and I don't think EPtS granted shield resistance). And so much more. I think about the only thing that didn't change at all was that Aux2Batteries was and still is useless.

I do not expect any of your predictions come true. The majority of a ship's power still comes from the naked BO powers it has. Sure, skills improve them, sometimes notably, but not enough to make a fundamental difference on a tactical level.

And it can't be repeated often enough, it seems: We're not losing 25 % skill points. The skills have different cost than before (and I am not just talking about the new scale). Tier 3 to Tier 5 skills are now cheaper than they were before. So you have 25 % less skill points. But you also need to spend something like 15 % less to have the same space build than before!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
12-29-2011, 05:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
We're not losing 25 % skill points. The skills have different cost than before (and I am not just talking about the new scale). Tier 3 to Tier 5 skills are now cheaper than they were before. So you have 25 % less skill points. But you also need to spend something like 15 % less to have the same space build than before!
So it costs 15% less to have the same build, but we have 25% less to spend. That's still a deficit of 10% which means that we can not have the same build. According to the devs, its an 8% decicit, and according to a lot of players its a lot more than 10%.

Possibly this variance stems from the fact that so many people have so many diffrerent builds depending on ship and character class?

Either way, its a loss in space skills, which is the heart of the issue for many players. Surely the devs could come up with a better solution to "level the playing field". (which is another pointless endevour in my opinion, but I will leave that for a separate discussion)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
12-29-2011, 07:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
The majority of a ship's power still comes from the naked BO powers it has. Sure, skills improve them, sometimes notably, but not enough to make a fundamental difference on a tactical level.
Wait, if skill points don't matter enough to "make a fundamental difference on a tactical level," then why are people up in arms over the change? Skill points matter, but as you noted (which I was unaware of), if the total loss is actually only 10% - the change won't be very significant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
12-29-2011, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post
Wait, if skill points don't matter enough to "make a fundamental difference on a tactical level," then why are people up in arms over the change? Skill points matter, but as you noted (which I was unaware of), if the total loss is actually only 10% - the change won't be very significant.
Because people don't know how important or how unimportant something is. They just see a number go down that they associate with something they have control, and they mistake this numbers as being the most relevant part of their decisions to a strong build. But it isn't really.
nd I am not saying the skill points are irrelevant. But I am saying the effectiveness of a build is more determined by picking the right BO powers than whether you have a +50 or a +99 modifier in a skill affecting your BOs. A character with the +99 modifier in, say that shield heal skill,d oesn't actually heal twice as much as the guy with the +50 modifier.

And, with 8 or 10 % less, we're not even talking about that. We're talking about something more like +80 or +99 or +40 vs +50.

The skill change doesn't have even close to the same effect as giving us 4 strong hull heals and a way to get strong shield resistance 100 % the time and buffing an allied shield resistance 75 % of the time, and turning the strongest shield heal and resistance buff into a pure science debuff clearance tool.
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