Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 121
12-21-2011, 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMikeHardy View Post
On the topic of the skill split.
I'm not against it, per se (I like it as it is)... But I am all about customization and specialization.

From a conceptual standpoint, we don't STOP training our soldiers/sailers/airmen when they've "learned enough." No, we take them to specialized advanced classes to hone their talents and see how far their limits can take them.
Be all you can be!

So, from a conceptual standpoint I'm against the split.
Also from a conceptual standpoint, we don't train *just* specialists. Snipers aren't just people who can fire a rifle with pinpoint accuracy. They also have basic training, advanced survival skills, plus a host of other things. Same with all soldiers. Nor do they 'stop' learning or forget the basics just because they've advanced.

Even specialists still have to be well rounded as their honed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 122
12-21-2011, 09:43 PM
What I don't understand is why they don't make the trees completely separate entities with completely separate points that doesn't take away from the amount of points available on live. There should be the current available skill points that are only available to space and a separate amount of skill points (in addition to the current amount of points available) that can only be applied to ground skills.

That way the devs are guaranteed everyone has points in both locations (unless someone just doesn't feel like allocating them into one branch), they can properly balance the game knowing exactly how many points can be spent in either space or ground (as everyone has exactly the same available) and people that like to only spend points in space aren't losing anything to the split. Win/win, no?

Additionally; I agree with those who have suggested that you shouldn't need to allocate a specific amount of points in the previous tier before being able to put points in the the following tiers. If you need to do that for leveling purposes, fine, whatever, but once you've reach admiral (any of them) rank you should be comfortable enough with the game (and you're a frackin admiral for cryin out loud!) where you can allocate points where ever you'd like.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 123
12-21-2011, 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stalazon View Post

Additionally; I agree with those who have suggested that you shouldn't need to allocate a specific amount of points in the previous tier before being able to put points in the the following tiers. If you need to do that for leveling purposes, fine, whatever, but once you've reach admiral (any of them) rank you should be comfortable enough with the game (and you're a frackin admiral for cryin out loud!) where you can allocate points where ever you'd like.
That would be like (to use another game as an analogy) being able to spend your talent points from the top of the tree down, getting the most powerful skills/abilities without needing any prerequisites. That's just a bad idea from any kind of balancing aspect, because it would be impossible to balance.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 124
12-21-2011, 09:50 PM
I play STO for the space combat. That what I've been paying you for. With this forced skill split, you are basically telling me, your paying customer, that my choice on how i wish to play your game is incorrect.
IMHO, ground combat in this game is stupidly easy. I have never spent skill points in ground, (with the exception of when team skills were buffed by ground skills),& I have never had problems beating the UI . Your spaceship combat is awesome, but your ground game is horrible. Donkey Kong has better ground combat than STO. I have friends who feel the exact opposite, & love the ground but hate the space combat. But you're sitting there in your cubicles telling all of your customers that we are all wrong, & can't be trusted to skill our own toons for the part of the game we want to play. I feel this decision was a mistake.
& Captain Geko, I challenge you to a pvp match. You can max every single space skill out on your toon. & I'll fly any one of my toons you choose. I bet I'll beat you. Not because of how i skilled my toon, but because of experience i have PVPing, Thats why hardcore PVPers win so often. It's not just our builds, Its our experience. & since your UI is as smart as my microwave oven , people new to PVP haven't had the chance to learn to use their characters abilities effectively. PVP is an entirely different game than PVE. & thats sad.
If you are truly doing this to "level the playing field", then institute a leader-board system where people can play against people with the same experience level. Or maybe have 2 different PVP ques. Make an account wide accolade everyone gets after completing 100 pvp matches. Then have a "starter" PVP que that only people without the accolade can enter.
On a positive note, I love the UI.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 125
12-21-2011, 09:52 PM
well i for one think this is a bad idea i just saw it on tribble it really hurts anyone that enjoys Space PvP
and Dosent Like ground PvP. its going to hurt alot of the hybrid Builds that are out there not sure why you couldnt just gave us more points that we could have put into ground instead of makeing us take them out of Space. if a person was spec into nothing but space and they got more points make it were we could only Spend them on ground that way we dont have to go all the way back to the drawing board Yet again to find out what works and what doesnt and the Plus side to it would be if that person is spec into space and now ground they would more likey try ground more often if they choose and if a person was spec into ground already they could spec into space and PvP there more as well but now it seems like we are gimped both ways
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 126
12-21-2011, 09:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amidoinitright View Post
You can max every single space skill out on your toon. & I'll fly any one of my toons you choose. I bet I'll beat you. Not because of how i skilled my toon, but because of experience i have PVPing, Thats why hardcore PVPers win so often.
Then you really shouldn't have any difficulty with the new skill setup even with its 'forced split', should you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 127
12-21-2011, 09:58 PM
Since this affects all players equally, you can't say people are losing. A PVPer isn't going to do worse now against other PVPers because they're affected by the same caps in space/ground that they are. Likewise for a PVEr, and with the ability to get more total ranks in the top tiers as a result of the skill points needed for them, they actually are more effective than before, not less.

You feel like you're being forced to spec in a way you don't like? If you're all space, just ignore the ground tree then. Put the minimum points into any ground skills just so you it will let you spec, and ignore the rest, you're otherwise fully specced in space as anyone can.

And for those complaining they never touch ground/space, and can do a STF anyway - if you never intended to put any points in the relavant ground/space skills, then stop doing STFs because you're just making the rest of us carry you, especially on elite, but even so on normal when going for bonus objectives.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 128
12-21-2011, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ainu
Since this affects all players equally, you can't say people are losing. A PVPer isn't going to do worse now against other PVPers because they're affected by the same caps in space/ground that they are. Likewise for a PVEr, and with the ability to get more total ranks in the top tiers as a result of the skill points needed for them, they actually are more effective than before, not less.

You feel like you're being forced to spec in a way you don't like? If you're all space, just ignore the ground tree then. Put the minimum points into any ground skills just so you it will let you spec, and ignore the rest, you're otherwise fully specced in space as anyone can.

And for those complaining they never touch ground/space, and can do a STF anyway - if you never intended to put any points in the relavant ground/space skills, then stop doing STFs because you're just making the rest of us carry you, especially on elite, but even so on normal when going for bonus objectives.
Yep, I concur completely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 129
12-21-2011, 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
I'm sharing these numbers with you in order to help folks see some of the hard data behind the recent changes. To some, seeing these numbers will mean very little, or actually upset you even more. But, maths don't lie, so take it for what it is.
I like numbers also...let me point out something here....I took one of my ground tactical alts that reside both on holodeck and tribble.
Holodeck
Tier 1:
Ground: 85%, 4 Skills Maxed out
Space: 15%, 0 Maxed
Tier 2:
Ground: 64%, 3 Skills Maxed out
Space: 36%, 1 Maxed
Tier 3:
Ground: 27%, 3 Skills Maxed out
Space: 73%, 0 Maxed
Tier 4:
Ground: 90%, 3 Skills Maxed out
Space: 10%, 0 Maxed
Tier 5:
Ground: 100%, 2 Skills Maxed out
Space: 0%, 0 Maxed


Tribble
Tier 1:
Ground: 27%, 0 Maxed
Space: 73%, 2 Maxed
Tier 2:
Ground: 23%, 0 Maxed
Space: 78%, 3 Maxed
Tier 3:
Ground: 16%, 0 Maxed
Space: 84%, 2 Maxed
Tier 4:
Ground: 84%, 0 Maxed
Space: 16%, 2 Maxed
Tier 5:
Ground: 24%, 0 Maxed
Space: 76%, 2 Maxed

So with the new system, if I max out anything in ground, I damage any chance of having any respectable skills at other levels. I went from having many Ground Skills playable and maxed to now having to be a "space jock" with many space skills maxed out.

So 0 ground, 11 space maxed out in tribble compared to 15 ground, 1 space maxed out in Holodeck.
You are correct Math doesn't lie, and it shows a calculated effort by Cryptic to gut the ground play. Please show me where ground players are better off being forced into "space jockey" type of builds, if they are wanting to do ground missions rather than being a "space jockey".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 130
12-21-2011, 10:10 PM
You know for all the grief on here, I wonder if they'll just change the costs of space skills so that you can buy as many skills as on live now. If they did that, the skill would be irrelevant.


Quote:
So 0 ground, 11 space maxed out in tribble compared to 15 ground, 1 space maxed out in Holodeck.
You are correct Math doesn't lie, and it shows a calculated effort by Cryptic to gut the ground play. Please show me where ground players are better off being forced into "space jockey" type of builds, if they are wanting to do ground missions rather than being a "space jockey".
With the diminishing returns system the skills have, maxing a skill doesn't seem to be as valuable? Then again, having separate points for space/ground (which is what the split is doing) was probably always going to nerf 'pure' builds.
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