Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
12-21-2011, 05:05 PM
I thought I'd give you guys a quick drive-by MATHing on Skill Buying Power under this new Space/Ground split system. It won't set everybody's minds at ease, but I hope it answers some questions and can set aside a few misconceptions.

Under the skill system that is currently on Holodeck, the max number of skill points you can spend in space is 72,750 (which just happens to be 100% of your total available, but that's not important to the following MATH.)

For each tier, the cost of buying every rank of every skill available is as follows:
  • Tier 1: 6750
  • Tier 2: 18900
  • Tier 3: 28350
  • Tier 4: 37800
  • Tier 5: 47250

The % of your available skill points that each Tier represents in % form is:
  • Tier 1: 9.2784%
  • Tier 2: 25.9794%
  • Tier 3: 38.9691%
  • Tier 4: 51.9588%
  • Tier 5: 64.9485%

Now, obviously that equals more than 100%, and nobody is capable of buying every rank of every skill available to them. That's not the point I'm trying to portray, so just hang in there a minute... I'm using these figures to make a comparison.

On average, the total cost per Tier is 38.2268% of your available Skill Points.

Now, let's take a look at the skill system that is currently on Tribble, where the max number of skill points you can spend in space is 275,000.

For each tier, the cost of buying every rank of every skill available is as follows:
  • Tier 1: 63000
  • Tier 2: 94500
  • Tier 3: 126000
  • Tier 4: 157500
  • Tier 5: 189000

The % of your available skill points that each Tier represents in % form is:
  • Tier 1: 22.9091%
  • Tier 2: 34.3636%
  • Tier 3: 45.8182%
  • Tier 4: 57.2727%
  • Tier 5: 68.7273%

On average, the total cost per Tier is 45.8182% of your available Skill Points.

What do these numbers mean?

As you can see, skill cost per rank took a pretty substantial step upward (relatively speaking) at Tier 1 (~14%), gradually reducing the relative increase in cost for each subsequent tier up to Tier 5 (~4%). And on average, the total "loss" of Skill Point Buying Power, despite having to put 25% of your total skill pool into Ground skills, is only about 8%.

I'm sharing these numbers with you in order to help folks see some of the hard data behind the recent changes. To some, seeing these numbers will mean very little, or actually upset you even more. But, maths don't lie, so take it for what it is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
12-21-2011, 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
Now, obviously that equals more than 100%, and nobody is capable of buying every rank of every skill available to them.
No, of course not. But I don't want to buy every rank of every skill. I just want to buy every rank of certain skills. BTW, why do you keep shouting "MATH"?

*chuckle* I just remembered the South Park tourettes episode.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
12-21-2011, 05:13 PM
edit

/10 char
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
12-21-2011, 05:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
I thought I'd give you guys a quick drive-by MATHing on Skill Buying Power under this new Space/Ground split system. It won't set everybody's minds at ease, but I hope it answers some questions and can set aside a few misconceptions.

Under the skill system that is currently on Holodeck, the max number of skill points you can spend in space is 72,750 (which just happens to be 100% of your total available, but that's not important to the following MATH.)

For each tier, the cost of buying every rank of every skill available is as follows:
  • Tier 1: 6750
  • Tier 2: 18900
  • Tier 3: 28350
  • Tier 4: 37800
  • Tier 5: 47250

The % of your available skill points that each Tier represents in % form is:
  • Tier 1: 9.2784%
  • Tier 2: 25.9794%
  • Tier 3: 38.9691%
  • Tier 4: 51.9588%
  • Tier 5: 64.9485%

Now, obviously that equals more than 100%, and nobody is capable of buying every rank of every skill available to them. That's not the point I'm trying to portray, so just hang in there a minute... I'm using these figures to make a comparison.

On average, the total cost per Tier is 38.2268% of your available Skill Points.

Now, let's take a look at the skill system that is currently on Tribble, where the max number of skill points you can spend in space is 275,000.

For each tier, the cost of buying every rank of every skill available is as follows:
  • Tier 1: 63000
  • Tier 2: 94500
  • Tier 3: 126000
  • Tier 4: 157500
  • Tier 5: 189000

The % of your available skill points that each Tier represents in % form is:
  • Tier 1: 22.9091%
  • Tier 2: 34.3636%
  • Tier 3: 45.8182%
  • Tier 4: 57.2727%
  • Tier 5: 68.7273%

On average, the total cost per Tier is 45.8182% of your available Skill Points.

What do these numbers mean?

As you can see, skill cost per rank took a pretty substantial step upward (relatively speaking) at Tier 1 (~14%), gradually reducing the relative increase in cost for each subsequent tier up to Tier 5 (~4%). And on average, the total "loss" of Skill Point Buying Power, despite having to put 25% of your total skill pool into Ground skills, is only about 8%.

I'm sharing these numbers with you in order to help folks see some of the hard data behind the recent changes. To some, seeing these numbers will mean very little, or actually upset you even more. But, maths don't lie, so take it for what it is.
I really, really appreciate this, Chris. I think it's very fair. Basically, someone with an all space build takes an 8% hit but gains ground skills. Someone with an all ground build will take no hit and improve in space?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
12-21-2011, 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I really, really appreciate this, Chris. I think it's very fair. Basically, someone with an all space build takes an 8% hit but gains ground skills. Someone with an all ground build will take no hit and improve in space?
My point is I want to level up mainly on ground skills with this particular character, and I'll spend the surplus points on space skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
12-21-2011, 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I really, really appreciate this, Chris. I think it's very fair. Basically, someone with an all space build takes an 8% hit but gains ground skills. Someone with an all ground build will take no hit and improve in space?
heh, it's Jeremy. Chris is still that silly unemployed podcaster.

All-Space will see an average of 8% loss in buying power.

I don't know the exact loss an All-Ground build will see. If anyone wants to take my numbers and run with it, they're welcome to.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
12-21-2011, 05:24 PM
The UI is a bit meh on the aesthetics side. It feels simplistic and could use some shiney. Yes I know very useful feedback but, well, its aesthetics, and basically its dull and boring.


Now for the split itself. First there is not enough of a buffer between the two skill sets. It is very easy to skill up in a way that leaves you having to shift a heck of a lot around to figure out how to fit that last 1000 or so points into the build. This is basically akin to the old issue where someone could skill up to VA and have 100 free points left over they need to use, but because they maxed out all the T1 skills they can't use it anywhere. This kind of thing is going to be very bad for people leveling up, basically forcing them to respec when they try to finalize their skill spending because they have some odd number of points left over that they can't spend anywhere.


Second, this is exceedingly punishing to science ships. Science ships are M.A.D. in RPG terms, and this skill split forces them to sacrifice all over the place, even if they just use low tier science skills. You want to swap out of a science ship? Respec is REQUIRED.

And why is this an issue? Science is expected to skill up areas that are totally useless to other ships, or have such a low return on an investment that they are easily skippable skills. Examples include: Every T3-5 science skill. All of those are very irrelevant to escorts and cruisers. Yet a science ship, to skill those up, has to make major sacrifices from power skills, defensive skills and damage output. Escorts and crusiers can keep a very solid build in the tactical and engineering trees by ignoring the science tree entirely.

Warp plasma uses particle generators for damage. You might think a cruiser would want to skill that up. Not really no, because the damage is not the important part for that skill. And a science ship sure as heck isn't going to get enough damage output from science skills to make up for less weapon damage. This has always been true.

Is there a reason for an escort or cruiser to skill up sensors? Well possibly if they are that annoyed by scramble sensors and refuse to carry a science team, otherwise it is completely useless to them.

How about subspace countermeasure system, surely an escort would want that? No, why? An escort using scramble sensors 1 at an escort's aux level is laughable.

But a science ship that wants to skill up aux performance? D u h. Weapon performance, crit chances, damage skills? OMG yes, please anything so I kill those stupid NPCs faster in my science ship, and put out a somewhat useful damage output in PVP!

Seriously, I've played my science ship since launch and no matter how often I try to work an aux-heavy build, I am always going back to high weapon power, because it works BETTER. Science skills, with certain exceptions, perform extremely poorly in PVE.

In PVP, science is very situational. Can it sometimes turn the tide of a battle? Yes. Can it also be a complete waste? Oh yes. But its going to be on cooldown for far longer than weapons will be, that is for certain. Regardless to have reasonable PVP performance I have to make major sacrifices in damage output and/or survivability, which chiefly affects PVE, but does definitely hurt PVP as well.


Now it is also important to note that space feels far tighter than ground. Why is this? Math.

There are 180000 points worth of skills in the entire ground tree, with 92000 at the maximum allowed, 91000 minimum. That is roughly 51% of ground can be skilled.

However there are now 600000 points of space skills now, and only 275000 can be skilled at max. That is 46%. That is of course exacerbated by the fact that many skills are effectively not worth taking for certain ships, like escorts and cruisers caring nothing about the majority of science skills.


So I'm annoyed at the split right now. I would like to see the buffer, the free points, whatever you want to call it, go up to at least 20000. This would help alleviate the issues with a tiny point sliver you may or may not actually be able to spend properly, it would also let people focus on space or ground at their discretion.

Also necessary, however, is to reduce the cost of science skills. Move T4 and 5 skills to tier 3 or just give them T3 costs. Why? Let me put it this way, can someone seriously suggest that the value of subspace decompilers or countermeasure systems is worth the same as aux performance or weapon performance or crit chances? They're not even close in terms of actual value and return on investment, especially if you're not a science ship and/or don't use any powers that use those skills. You are, however, always going to find use for more aux and weapon power, regardless of build, and crit chance is gravy.

I would also LOVE to see tier requirements lowered. For example to say if (fake numbers) it takes 10000 skills per level to rank up to the next rank, and we get 50000 total, we then need to spend 10000 points per rank, right? Well T5 is still exceedingly tight on skill points, so why not make it 7500 per rank thus you end up with 30000 skill points spent when T5 finally opens up, and thus 20000 that could be spent on T5 and lower skills rather than a paltry 10000. How this works out in the actual skill tree I haven't got a clue, but hopefully the concept is clear enough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
12-21-2011, 05:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorticusCryptic
If anyone wants to take my numbers and run with it, they're welcome to.
As long as I don't wanna run around on the ground with maximum explosives and repair before I've learned to fly a starship? Like I said... think main stream. Think main stream money.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
12-21-2011, 05:26 PM
Well,, I'll never believe that math doesn't lie, but, it is nice to see the differences and I appreciate the breakdown.

Still not thrilled about using skills in an area of the game I really don't do, now if I can just get it to work out to let me accept the changes I'm sure I'll be less irritated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
12-21-2011, 05:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkem View Post

Still not thrilled about using skills in an area of the game I really don't do,
Or have done to death on other characters?
Reply

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