Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 501
12-24-2011, 06:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amidoinitright View Post
I have not spent a point in a ground skill since season 1.2, & i had absolutely ZERO difficulty running STF's on elite before season 4. I'd die about as often as my ground twink friends died. The UI is STUPID! it does the exact same thing, over & over. You don't need to spec into ground to beat it. expose/exploit ,next target. Thats ground combat in a nutshell. Spending points in ground is wasted until they totally revamp ground combat & make it anything other than expose/exploit. There are countless numbers of ground combat games out there that completely blow STO's version of it away. Pretty much everything since Pong is better. I know some people will disagree with me, but look in the pvp ques, how often does ground pop?
Edit. Ground is about your gear+experience space is about your spec+experience
Your data is way out of date. Get caught up and get back to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 502
12-24-2011, 07:33 PM
I don't like the mandatory split between ground and space skills, and i don't like this "new" (more accurate to say over-inflated) math being used for it. I'm starting to think they should do away with the skill point system altogether, convert to a standard XP system, with players gaining points every level to improve class specific skill sets. With everything they're doing trying to make the current system work "better", it's only making things ridiculously convoluted. Earning and spending skill points seemed like a good system at first, but i'm not sure anymore. While I do see some improvement in several odd areas (KDF Campaign, ground combat, etc), every change made to the game feels only half-finished and it's becoming intolerable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 503 bye bye
12-24-2011, 08:38 PM
I just started playing a few months ago, but this drastic and unwanted change means that I will be cancelling my subscription. I play Star Trek Online so that I can fly a spaceship and blow up other spaceships. I HATE the ground missions in this game. There are a great many other games out there for ground combat. Ship captains should never go on away missions anyways. Kirk, Picard, Janeway, and Archer should have been reprimanded for abandoning their posts.

Anyways, to ME, ground combat is absolutely worthless. I joined this game to fly a space ship, not shoot a rifle. Forcing me to spend points on a part of the game that has absolutely no value to me is not the way to go.

Role playing games are also about building customizable characters, but this change completely removes all customization and replaces it with cookie cutter builds.

These changes make the game less customizable and fun. No on this entire thread has explained why forcing people that don't play ground missions to spec into ground combat is a good thing.

Cryptic, these changes remove choice, fun, and diversity from this game.

Let those that want to play ground combat spec into ground combat. Let those that want to play space combat spec into space combat. Let those that want to do both do both.

Life is about choices, and you aren't doing anyone a favor by REMOVING choices.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 504
12-24-2011, 09:32 PM
After Spending 10 retrain tokens on Tribble (they only cost 10cpoints from the large pool of free points given) and plinkering around with what does what and how at different numerical skill settings, I'm not finding the Skill tree change all that upsetting.
Example: Batteries, first 5 ievels of teh skill only increase duration by 5 seconds. Last 4 levels of skill only increase duration by a further 5 seconds. Base duration is only 10 seconds at 0 points.

I am finding that some skills definately have seriuos diminishing returns the higher you score them, even to the point of being useless above 6, and others are worth squeezing all the bonus you can from them.
example: Attack Patterns {ApB3) -33% base damage resistance at 0 points skilled. -47% at 6 points skills, but only -50% at 9 poiints skilled.

Some make no sense becuase even though they appear helpful one doesn't have any guage from which to tell how they are helping.
example: SS Energy & Projectile Specialization. A player has no idea how this effect Critical Hit or Severity since the skill does not give a % increase of CritH or CritD per skill level or what ones bonuses even are ingame.

Overall it is and adjustment to gameplay but if one is quitting over this change then one is over-reacting in my opinion.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 505
12-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkin View Post
Look Sooner, Strom, this is gonna happen, its needed to happen, its not about diversity, its fundamental game balance. The skill split should have happened as soon as they realized people were not doing what they balanced the game around. They knew people would have the reaction you both are having. Of course folks wouldn't like it. But the fact is this levels the playing field. Everyone will now make the same set of choices. This is about equality of opportunity. Sooner I just finished Assimilated, the only time i died was when i pulled the whole room to test it. Your BO build is out dated bro, that is all there is to it. The ground system works, does it force you to make some tough choices? Yes. But it also will offer the most players the best experiences possible. I know its hard, to accept when things change. But this is what needed to happen and now its happening.
As stated many times before. If you want everyone to be the same or be on a level playing field, scrap the skill trees, go to straight xp and give everybody class specific abilities as they level. They could even make each skill box effect both ground and space(not sure how that would work, but hey, it's worth looking into) if they want to keep the skill trees. The whole skill tree system is to create diverse characters that either specialize in one area or are a jack of all trades. If that wasn't the plan, don't do the skill trees in the way they did.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 506
12-24-2011, 10:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
After Spending 10 retrain tokens on Tribble (they only cost 10cpoints from the large pool of free points given) and plinkering around with what does what and how at different numerical skill settings, I'm not finding the Skill tree change all that upsetting.
Example: Batteries, first 5 ievels of teh skill only increase duration by 5 seconds. Last 4 levels of skill only increase duration by a further 5 seconds. Base duration is only 10 seconds at 0 points.

I am finding that some skills definately have seriuos diminishing returns the higher you score them, even to the point of being useless above 6, and others are worth squeezing all the bonus you can from them.
example: Attack Patterns {ApB3) -33% base damage resistance at 0 points skilled. -47% at 6 points skills, but only -50% at 9 poiints skilled.

Some make no sense becuase even though they appear helpful one doesn't have any guage from which to tell how they are helping.
example: SS Energy & Projectile Specialization. A player has no idea how this effect Critical Hit or Severity since the skill does not give a % increase of CritH or CritD per skill level or what ones bonuses even are ingame.

Overall it is and adjustment to gameplay but if one is quitting over this change then one is over-reacting in my opinion.
That is very good information I suspected thats how it was going, but its good to get figures behind it
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 507
12-24-2011, 10:58 PM
The "Forced" split will cost STO subscriptions...there is a large majority of players that do not like ground and pound stuff. They want to be Star Ship Captains, not Squad Leaders. Let them do what they want to do, its their money, quit being..."Control Freaks"...you guys have been screwing with this Skill Tree for months now...JUST STOP... and let us play the game...

With that said:

I have messed with this new Tribble skill tree for a solid 2 hrs and keep having the same 500pt left over, no matter what I change.

The back arrows will not let me change stuff and move points around to fix it..keeps giving me a "error changing skill" msg.

When I finally said screw it, I'll just eat the 500pts and pushed "accept" it zeroed me out...had to start over...

There is nothing telling us how many pts we are using at each rank, it is kinda of hard keeping track of 366,000 skill pts. Why you guys did that is beyond me...what was wrong with the old point system.

I do not really have a problem with the catagories..they are what they are...you already screwed up the Skill Tree when you "dummied" down the weapons power (phaser, disruptor, polaron, antiproton ect ect) anyway. Everybody is cookie cutter 6 grade MMO player now, nobody has anything different, just point and shoot.

You have completly made PvP unimagineable...again, just a point, shoot and scoot side show event.

You guys do really good stuff, then you start screwing with stuff that doesnt need to be screwed with.

I am a LTSer, I really want to have this game be around for 10 or so years and I would gladly start spending money again in the C-store, but you all need to settle down on the changes and start listening to the player base.

Thats all for now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 508
12-25-2011, 12:01 AM
I got into the habit of almost always putting some points into ground because prior to ground2 I freaking hated ground and the skill points helped me get through it. For that reason I have to say this change has not caused me too much shock.

As above implies, while welcome, all is not roses in this new garden. From my prior experience with skilling a toon out I have learned quite a bit, (in the original system many of my toons have more than spent their respc tokens, I have bought them respec tokens). At least one pattern holds true. Tacs need the lest points in space and Sci needs the most. For me this means that my tacs tend to be the most ground capable and my scis are often lucky to have nine points spread out among four ground skills.

If there is any one career class I would be inclined to only have space skills it is science. There are simply too many space skills that all the classes need so that when you spec a sci toon it is natural to need more points in space just to have a toon that is truly competitive. Sci Vessels it seems have to be even more jack of all trades than any other class. Less weapons on the nose means more DPS skills, narrow fire archs of science abilities like GW and Tachyon means more points into maneuvers and engines, less hull than an escort means more points into ship heals. We have not even gotten to Crowd Control and drain skills and the high cost of T5 skills like Aux Perf.

This is compounded by the fact that in the original system most of the sci heals are low tier while most of the skills that make drain, CC and damage from CC effective are mostly in high tiers.

In the new system the same holds true. You need high shield heals to toss to your team mates, but you also need hull and armor to buy the time you need to employ a weak heal to a foil thin SV hull. You need weapons power and DPS skills, (because even on a SV DPS is king), while you need that exotic particle skill to make Gravity Well mean something more than, "Sit tight so I can tap on you with this here 25% weapons power setting phaser." Took me forever to find a set up for a sci in a SV in the original system that would let me post anything impressive in the way of heals and DPS in PvP and now after a couple of moths that "golden age" is gone.

Now I tend to drop points till the next tier opens up and usually will go and back fill with any unused points when I finish getting T5 where I like it. I was kinda shocked when I got done and found I could not do this...

When I put Baloo, (my Sci in a SV), through the new respec I was shocked to see that in T5 skills I only had 12 pips. I was a ground monster with easily three times the skills one of my tacs would normally have, (and those tacs are generally brutal in the dirt), and while space was close I was not quite as effective. I was able to scrape some points off the top of T4 and T3 skills but not enough to really approximate the awesome that Baloo's Recon SV once had. At least it is a global thing that affects all players. My only hope is that the Borg in the RAs have been toned down a touch to account for the skill change. Who am I kidding? Maxed out CC skills seemed to not really bother most Borg ships anyways, (well anything larger than a probe at least).

Seems to me that you need to adjust the tier threshold down a bit for tiers 2-4 so that there are a few more pips available at T5 for all the classes. Also when most of my ground skills average around 4-5 while only a few have nothing to almost nothing in them makes it seem that you could move a few of those ground skill points over to space. Or you could make some wacky exception that sci captains pay a bit less for sci skills at T3-T5, but I sense that would unbalance what is a precarious system to begin with, (producing SVs that are too well rounded).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 509
12-25-2011, 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Seems to me that you need to adjust the tier threshold down a bit for tiers 2-4 so that there are a few more pips available at T5 for all the classes.
It only seems to be bad if you spend anything in upper tier ground skills - if you dump into lower tier ground skills so you hit the ground max before you've unlocked the top tier of skills, you've actually got a reasonable amount to work with when you get there. In my not even trying to be good build I got three skills to 9 and a fourth into yellow, and some points left over to throw into lower tiers to finish it up. If you were doing things in a less irresponsible manner than I did with my first build you could actually get some pretty good coverage.


I think a better way to free up T5 skills (though indirectly) would be to separate the tier progression for space and ground the same way skill points are.

With the current setup, when you get to tier 5, you've got a certain amount of skill points for both sides of the split. If you've already used your ground points, that leaves the entire tier for space, and it allows a couple pips more than you can get on holodeck right now. However, if you've still got ground allotment to fill, then that literally comes out of your tier 5 space skills, which correct me if I'm wrong is supposed to be the situation the whole split was supposed to avoid.




Overall, I'm actually pleased with how this turned out. Comparing my skill tree side by side with holodeck, I've actually got BETTER space skill coverage on tribble - my escorts held even in damage and shields, gained in speed, and lost a bit of hull because my slack points after tier 5 ended up only covering a tier 1 skill, and the build fits my non-escort ships better.

I've got more skill levels in the upper end, and of my losses at lower tiers, everything except 2 pips in tier 2 were slack I had to fill in just to get to tier 3+.

Downside, like I said above, the build only really holds together because I figured out I could dump ground skills into lower tiers to free upper tier points for space. If I decided I really wanted one of those tier 5 ground skills, things would go downhill awful fast.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 510
12-25-2011, 01:55 AM
Thank you Hevach. I will try that. If that is the case then they should put something in the UI to give us a better feel for how many points you have to spend so you can better plan for T5 skills. You know, like the old experience points range the original UI gave us above each tier..
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