Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 891
02-01-2012, 07:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hort_wort View Post
From what I've read, people seem quite upset about 3 things relating to the mmo aspect of TOR:
  1. Too many servers, making it hard to find friends.
  2. Too many names. Every friend you have has a different name for each character and it's almost impossible to keep track.
  3. No cross faction or server chat channels.

I think these things should be fixed before they rework space combat. As the number of players drops, they could start consolidating servers. Writing some code to get everyone an @handle shouldn't be too big a deal -- they could tell everyone they have 3 months to choose one, and if they don't then their first character's name will become their @handle. Finally, what the heck is even the point of having a chat channel that doesn't let you chat with anyone?

These are just the things that struck me, an outside observer who hasn't played since the beta.
They already have Legacy names. Just use those. Those are one unique name per server already.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 892
02-01-2012, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Strike
They already have Legacy names. Just use those. Those are one unique name per server already.
I have no idea what those are. Do they solve problems 1-3?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 893
02-01-2012, 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hort_wort View Post
I have no idea what those are. Do they solve problems 1-3?
They should be able to be used as global names is what I was referring to. So it would help on 2 if it was implemented as such.

You get a Legacy name when your first character finishes the first Act which is in the 20s unless you do EVERYTHING then someone in my guild didn't unlock it until about 30. But they are unique per server so nobody else on your server can have your Legacy name as a Legacy name. Most use them as Surnames in the game so if you seen a high level run by you with a first and last name that means a Legacy just passed you by.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 894
02-01-2012, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
Do you know, I have no idea what your on about. The point I asked that you still have not answered with any of your "snippets", is where does it say it has failed to meet expectations by EA not by some analyst? Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse?

And my point regards STO going F2P and you once again skipping was you saying it went F2P not because it wasn't making any money but was implying it was going down the Lotr route, in which it was making money but wanted more.

There really isn't any point debating anything with you.

You were one of the more vocal defenders when people were saying STO is going down the tube and will be F2P shortly and you were adamament it wouldn't and were shouting people down left right and center. A few weeks later we got the nodit was.

No point in even bothering to debate anything with you anymore, as your so blinkered you should call yourself Seabiscuit.
I never stated STO would never go F2P as I knew that was justr a matter of time. I honestly didn't think they would do so as soon as they did, even aftyer the aquisition as they already had a drought in development due to teh Atari sale - and I knew that doing the conversion at that time would extend the situation (and it did); and I still don''t hink this was a good time to do it - but that's all water under the bridge at the point

As for why it went F2P - I still am of the belief STO was profitable prior to teh Artari selloff because if it (and Cryptic as a whole) was not - PWE wouldn't have paid 50 million to Atari for Cryptic - and PWE wouldn't be pouriing more money into the project and staffing Cryptic back up aftyer Atari instituted a hiring freeze during the sale period. If PWE just wanted Cryptic's MMO engine, they could have gotten that a lot cheaper and just paiid a few former Cryptic employees to train their staff in using and supporting it.

I get that you think STO is a dead cesspool and SWToR is somehow the current pinnicle of MMOs. But that doesn't change the situation that currently, SWToR is performing below EA's expectations. Also, I didn't misquote the EA CEO or take anything stated out of context. I quoted his full statement in the recent post that you replied to - and I'll repost what I quoted in that post from the full articlle I linked to originally:

article (link)

And the quote I had from the EA CEO:

Quote:
EA CEO John Riccitiello told investors that the game starts to become profitable at about 500,000 subscriptions and "makes good money on an ongoing basis" at 1 million subscriptions. But really, considering how much money they've put into this game and into purchasing the game's developer BioWare he said, "anything north of 1 million, as we approach 1.5 million or 2 million, starts to look like a great investment."
Basically says (IMO):

500,000K - it supports itself
1 million - it starts to make money.
2 million - it makes the money we want to see

But, you also state that I still don't have enough support for my claim that SWToR is underperforming in EA's eyes. Well, I guess you didn't read the article very closely as befopre the CEO statement, the President of EA Games, Frank Gibeau says:

Quote:
"We feel very bullish to be able to come into this category with a fresh offering, something that's brand new that appeals to a majority of that category," EA Games label president Frank Gibeau told investors, according to a transcript of the meeting released by financial analyst site Seeking Alpha. "And it's a category that hasn't seen a lot of releases that fit the scale over the years and we feel like we're in a good position to pick up on a lot of latent demand."

What kind of demand are they expecting? Well, for starters, Gibeau said they see the MMO category as being a "tens of millions person opportunity."

And Gibeau said, "We've got a very aggressive plan to be able to scale multiple millions of users coming into the Star Wars franchise and service this fall."
So again, do you really want to claim EA ISN'T expecting 2 million retained subs as a minimum?

Then again, there's the Massively article (link)

That puts SWToR's current subscriber base at 800K (based yes, on an analysts findings - but hey, you guys love to quote MMO Data's claim of 60K STO subs too back in the day - but in the end, it's the only number being reported for SWToR and EA/BioWare hasn't said anything about their subscription numbers opublically either. EA's just stated they have over '1 million registered accounts' and 'accounts' <> 'paid subscriptions' as don't you think if EA COULD back up a claim of 1 million or 2 miollion paid subs, they would issue a BIG press release to shut the analysts you're so quick to dismiss up?)

Lastly there teh reviews from the SWToR's players themselves via Metacritic (link) ; which currently gives SWToR a user scrore of 5.9 based on 1500 reviews to date.

(By comparison STO has a Metacritic user score of 6.0 (link))

But in the end, my point:

As a SWToR sunscriber myself, I AM worried about the future expansion of the game as new content will be VERY expensive and time consuming for them to produce - and from all indications the game IS unpderperforming in EA's eyes (and yes, SWToR had the largeest launch of any MMO to date, so it remains to be seen if EA/BioWare misread the current MMO market and set unrealistic expectations for the game); but, in the end, given EA's history with titles they see as underperforming in their eyes, I have to wonder how long they'll give SWToR to meet or exceed their expectaions before they make a strategy change (and either start cutting staff and funding, etc; or maybe make another push to rope subscribers - but again, with EA's history - cut and run is more what they do in such situations.)

So yeah, if you want to continue to say I have no evidence for my claimns as to what EA expected, etc; or that I'm somehow misreading something or taking info out of context and being obtuse, that's your call.

IMO - I think SWToR is exactly what Lucas Arts and BioWare EA wanted:

An MMO based on KoTOR heavily patterned after the World of ******** Paradigm. I also think EA/BioWare set expectations too high and it may hiurt future development of the game in the long run.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 895
02-01-2012, 12:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
As for why it went F2P - I still am of the belief STO was profitable prior to teh Artari selloff because if it (and Cryptic as a whole) was not - PWE wouldn't have paid 50 million to Atari for Cryptic - and PWE wouldn't be pouriing more money into the project and staffing Cryptic back up aftyer Atari instituted a hiring freeze during the sale period.
Apparently they're pouring money into the development of Neverwinter moreso than STO.

Which makes sense. PWE bought the company, for the engine and the staff that can churn out quick and easy MMOs (or OMGs if you go with Jack's nickname for what they do). So I don't think STO was really the selling point. There's already been commentary that Star Trek's not exactly a major IP in the east. But the technology, the staff, the engine ... the company can utlilize all of those assets to put out new projects and make some bank.

They bought Cryptic because Cryptic fit their plans. STO was part of that sale, but I really haven't seen much evidence that STO was the driving force behind the purchase. Heck, Cryptic still has job openings and an interim Exec Producer, and already rehired this game's last EP to work on the Foundry, which is a bigger part of ... Neverwinter.

I don't know. I mean this game's not getting ignored by PWE. For sure. But the purchase was definitely made for more than just this game. Future projects and the nuts and bolts of what the company could make/design seem to me to be much more important in the purchase. Champions and STO are just like, side dishes.

Quote:
As a SWToR sunscriber myself, I AM worried about the future expansion of the game as new content will be VERY expensive and time consuming for them to produce -
Developer commentary indicates that the game's already got a blueprint that extends to 2013, and that voice acting has been paid for and worked on for content that goes into next year. They have already invested money in stuff beyond launch. So I don't know, worry less maybe?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 896
02-01-2012, 03:04 PM
So, let me understand this language you speak because it's not English.

CEO says "profitable at about 500,000 subscriptions" and you interpret that as they need 1 million to make a profit?

You didn't even read it. Just admit it. So not even going to quote that drivel madness you spouted. I stopped reading at that point since someone can tell you sky is blue and you will think they said it was green or something.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 897
02-01-2012, 03:10 PM
Sheesh this thread has gone to limbo and back again
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 898
02-01-2012, 03:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Strike
So, let me understand this language you speak because it's not English.

CEO says "profitable at about 500,000 subscriptions" and you interpret that as they need 1 million to make a profit?

You didn't even read it. Just admit it. So not even going to quote that drivel madness you spouted. I stopped reading at that point since someone can tell you sky is blue and you will think they said it was green or something.
No, I read it and I interpreted it as I said because again, in corporate speak they never want to state it straight.

For example - Cryptic had stated there MMOs would be 'profitable' at 50K subs in the past; and successful at 100K+ subs, yet people (even at th 60K number spouted by MMO data for STO in the past) like to say even at that point the game was failing financially. Same type of thing.

That said, EA seems to have released some actual hard and current numbers (link to aricle here)

The Gist of it: At present EA states SWToR has 1.7 million subscribers (and in their definition that includes both people still in the first 30 day 'free' period; and people now paying a subscription fee.)

Bottom line - Looks like SWToR will make that 1 million subscription mark; so it looks like it is meeting or exceeding EA's expectations - which is good all around as that means they should continue to fully fund development.

I knopw pleople love to pidgeonhole people imnto groups and that somehow, because I had an interpretation of the data available showing SWToR was underperforming, I'm some sort of SWToR hater. Far from it as I'm still one of those 1.7 million. In the end I AM dissapointed that BioWare didn't do some more innovative stuff given all the time and budget they had (SWToR's space combat system still sucks - HARD (IMO); and while I have used it to get quick credits, overall I wish it was more.)

You see, funny thing is - I like playing BOTH STO and SWToR; and find things I enjoy is both games. If you really look at my posting history, I don't give STO much of a pass either; but overall, as far as MMO gameplay and innovation, I'd say they've done more on the game mechanics side then BioWare - STO's big failinng is it is still light on Dev crreated mission content - and that is a MAJOR issue.

But, given it had 1/4 the Dev time, and 1/10 the Dev budget and 1/10 the Dev team count;I think they've tried to do the best they can and have created something I overall still like; or I wouldn't be playing.

Honbestly, I'd love to see BOTH these MMOs survive and thive as I hate the High fantasy genere of MMOs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 899
02-02-2012, 02:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
No, I read it and I interpreted it as I said because again, in corporate speak they never want to state it straight.

For example - Cryptic had stated there MMOs would be 'profitable' at 50K subs in the past; and successful at 100K+ subs, yet people (even at th 60K number spouted by MMO data for STO in the past) like to say even at that point the game was failing financially. Same type of thing.

That said, EA seems to have released some actual hard and current numbers (link to aricle here)

The Gist of it: At present EA states SWToR has 1.7 million subscribers (and in their definition that includes both people still in the first 30 day 'free' period; and people now paying a subscription fee.)

Bottom line - Looks like SWToR will make that 1 million subscription mark; so it looks like it is meeting or exceeding EA's expectations - which is good all around as that means they should continue to fully fund development.

I knopw pleople love to pidgeonhole people imnto groups and that somehow, because I had an interpretation of the data available showing SWToR was underperforming, I'm some sort of SWToR hater. Far from it as I'm still one of those 1.7 million. In the end I AM dissapointed that BioWare didn't do some more innovative stuff given all the time and budget they had (SWToR's space combat system still sucks - HARD (IMO); and while I have used it to get quick credits, overall I wish it was more.)

You see, funny thing is - I like playing BOTH STO and SWToR; and find things I enjoy is both games. If you really look at my posting history, I don't give STO much of a pass either; but overall, as far as MMO gameplay and innovation, I'd say they've done more on the game mechanics side then BioWare - STO's big failinng is it is still light on Dev crreated mission content - and that is a MAJOR issue.

But, given it had 1/4 the Dev time, and 1/10 the Dev budget and 1/10 the Dev team count;I think they've tried to do the best they can and have created something I overall still like; or I wouldn't be playing.

Honbestly, I'd love to see BOTH these MMOs survive and thive as I hate the High fantasy genere of MMOs.
You see, I would have more respect for your posts, if you'd have just answered the original question which was "Where has TOR not met EA's (EA being the key word) expectations". You went into a long diatribe quoting all kinds of sources and never once answered the original question. You got angry and re-itterated the same things, but then put in a small paragraph admitting this was some analyst opinion, but still was head bent on trying to prove it has not met EA's expectations.

Now finally that they have released some figures, it shows it is above EA's expectations but you still gloss over the fact that you were trying to basically say that TOR isn't performing well.

Also, since when did I say TOR was the pinnical of MMos? TBH, no MMo has ever captured me like EQ and then WOW. TOR is going in the right direction, but it will never be the same feeling as these other 2 MMos, because I am older and have more family things to do, so once again, don't put words in my mouth.

I also don't think STO is a dead cesspool. I think it's a poor substand game not deserving of the IP and has only 1 thing I like and that's my Defiant ship, but it's by no means the worst MMo I have played it's just a poor MMo. Once again, don't put words into my mouth.

You change your posts when you know the things you have been saying are gumph and now your expecting people to believe that your a TOR fan and subscribed.

Go back to some of your posts last year where once again you liked to cross swords with me (not sure why). Your tag line about TOR then was that it a WOW Clone with a rail shooter. You used the words Rail Shooter nearly every post you did about debunking TOR, so forgive me if I take what you say about TOR with a pinch of salt.

Shesh. Am I mad bro?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 900
02-02-2012, 07:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
No, I read it and I interpreted it as I said because again, in corporate speak they never want to state it straight.

For example - Cryptic had stated there MMOs would be 'profitable' at 50K subs in the past; and successful at 100K+ subs, yet people (even at th 60K number spouted by MMO data for STO in the past) like to say even at that point the game was failing financially. Same type of thing.

That said, EA seems to have released some actual hard and current numbers (link to aricle here)

The Gist of it: At present EA states SWToR has 1.7 million subscribers (and in their definition that includes both people still in the first 30 day 'free' period; and people now paying a subscription fee.)

Bottom line - Looks like SWToR will make that 1 million subscription mark; so it looks like it is meeting or exceeding EA's expectations - which is good all around as that means they should continue to fully fund development.

I knopw pleople love to pidgeonhole people imnto groups and that somehow, because I had an interpretation of the data available showing SWToR was underperforming, I'm some sort of SWToR hater. Far from it as I'm still one of those 1.7 million. In the end I AM dissapointed that BioWare didn't do some more innovative stuff given all the time and budget they had (SWToR's space combat system still sucks - HARD (IMO); and while I have used it to get quick credits, overall I wish it was more.)

You see, funny thing is - I like playing BOTH STO and SWToR; and find things I enjoy is both games. If you really look at my posting history, I don't give STO much of a pass either; but overall, as far as MMO gameplay and innovation, I'd say they've done more on the game mechanics side then BioWare - STO's big failinng is it is still light on Dev crreated mission content - and that is a MAJOR issue.

But, given it had 1/4 the Dev time, and 1/10 the Dev budget and 1/10 the Dev team count;I think they've tried to do the best they can and have created something I overall still like; or I wouldn't be playing.

Honbestly, I'd love to see BOTH these MMOs survive and thive as I hate the High fantasy genere of MMOs.

You said:

Quote:
Basically says (IMO):

500,000K - it supports itself
1 million - it starts to make money.
2 million - it makes the money we want to see
When the CEO said 500k to be profitable. They can keep 1.2 million and be happy. So by your definition, when STO said 50k, that to you meant they needed 100k to support itself? That's the same way you did it to TOR by doubling what they said.

No wonder STO had to go F2P, they were about to shut it down as it was bleeding money since the numbers were estimated around 60k. They were 40k short of being able to support themselves. At a rate of 60% of what they needed. PATHETIC.
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