Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 931
02-03-2012, 07:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
That's a bit misleading. You had to grind XP in levels for your skills. You had to level up rifleman, for example. Or commando.
The game originally had specific XP for specific things. You had to use a rifle for rifle XP, Teras Kasi for TK XP, so it was a XP by usage style game.

Not quite pure leveling.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 932
02-03-2012, 07:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
What I meant by trinity was a game mechanics trope. Tank, Healer, DPS. Fighter, Cleric, Rogue. Warrior, Priest, Mage. The trinity. It comes from the pen and paper RPG genre and spread easily into MMORPGs.
I know - Tank, Healer, DPS. The classic 'Holy Trinity' of MMOs. But it doesn't have to be like that. I forget what game it was (possibly Guild Wars) that a friend told me about, where tanking doesn't work, because the programmed AI goes for healers first. Guild Wars 2 is doing away with the healer class.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
Right. The mechanics just aren't that important. The game delivers standard mechanics that are functional within the genre. It's what you do while you play the game that sets is apart. To me it may have the same MMORPG mechanics as Rift or EQ, but what I do while I'm in game feels nothing like those other games. I'm playing a different game with a different story.

Let me put it to you this way ... I never really cared that NCAA football used the same mechanics as Madden football. They both played differently to me because of what happened in-game.
After spending 4 years playing NCAA, would you not be a bit bored with the way that game did things and hope for something new and interesting from Madden? They may have different names for things, look a little different, but they are the same game, just with a different name.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 933
02-03-2012, 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by superchum View Post
That's a bit misleading. You had to grind XP in levels for your skills. You had to level up rifleman, for example. Or commando.
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelchall
The game originally had specific XP for specific things. You had to use a rifle for rifle XP, Teras Kasi for TK XP, so it was a XP by usage style game.

Not quite pure leveling.
That isn't what I meant, sorry if I was a little misleading. What I meant was you weren't limited in what you could do. if you wanted a Master Chef who was an expert in martial arts, then fine, you made a Master Chef who was an expert in martial arts. If you took the Marksman class, you didn't have to improve all of the Marksman skills, you could become a Pistoleer, for example.

In WoW, TOR, etc, you pick a class, and that's it. The best amount of freedom you get in customizing your character is deciding if (for example) you want to freeze your enemies or burn them (WoW Mage). Even after choosing one of these specialities, your final build (providing you are moving into endgame and raiding, etc) will be exactly the same as the next fire mages.

With a skill-based progression, you don't get that. There is more freedom to create the character you want to play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 934
02-03-2012, 07:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelchall
The game originally had specific XP for specific things. You had to use a rifle for rifle XP, Teras Kasi for TK XP, so it was a XP by usage style game.

Not quite pure leveling.
It's still levelling though, just a different way of doing it

But on the subject of TOR, if you have never played EQ or U/O, which are the daddies of MMo's, then your foolish to call any game coming out as a "WoW Clone". This usually says to me that you judge all games by WoW as if it's the pinnicle of MMos. Far from it. It's one of the most accessable, casual friendly MMos ever made and this I give it props too, but I still don't think it's as good as EQ was circa Kunark and beyond.

I am happy with the standard mechanics of MMos and all I ask for is to make it fun. TOR to me is fun. I don't look at it and go, it just like WoW or EQ or **** or **** or DC online, I know it's going to have simular mechanics, I just want it to be enjoyable and that it certainly is and once again 1.7 mil people agree so far.

Let's put it this way, if STO was called Space ship online, it would have finished 6 months out of the door. It's just the IP that keeps it on life support.

Still not sure what STO has done that's so innovative.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 935
02-03-2012, 08:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort1980 View Post
After spending 4 years playing NCAA, would you not be a bit bored with the way that game did things and hope for something new and interesting from Madden? They may have different names for things, look a little different, but they are the same game, just with a different name.
Oddly enough the thing I've wanted MOST from Madden, they never bothered to address. I've wanted more logos added to the customize your own team setup.

It's the same old dinky logos from the early aughts.



All that hit stick technology and audible functionality trying to mimic real live NFL gameplay, and they stick with the same limited customization year in and year out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 936
02-03-2012, 08:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort1980 View Post
That isn't what I meant, sorry if I was a little misleading. What I meant was you weren't limited in what you could do. if you wanted a Master Chef who was an expert in martial arts, then fine, you made a Master Chef who was an expert in martial arts. If you took the Marksman class, you didn't have to improve all of the Marksman skills, you could become a Pistoleer, for example.

In WoW, TOR, etc, you pick a class, and that's it. The best amount of freedom you get in customizing your character is deciding if (for example) you want to freeze your enemies or burn them (WoW Mage). Even after choosing one of these specialities, your final build (providing you are moving into endgame and raiding, etc) will be exactly the same as the next fire mages.

With a skill-based progression, you don't get that. There is more freedom to create the character you want to play.
Even with skill based progression, you still have to choose the same skills at end level to get the best final build. Are you trying to convince people that skill based progression really is that free form in an MMo, when you have theory craft sites telling you what to take to get the best out of your toon?

In a sandbox game like SWG that I played for 2 years, I enjoyed my BH and enjoyed the "freeform" choice, but I also like my hunter in WoW and having to use the best build out there.

In the end, what you don't understand is that I understand you don't like the game. Not a problem. You gave your reasons that even though I don't agree, there is not right or wrong on this as it's your opinion. So in the end, to you, your right it is a WoW clone so I will no longer try to convince you that it isn't.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 937
02-03-2012, 08:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
Even with skill based progression, you still have to choose the same skills at end level to get the best final build. Are you trying to convince people that skill based progression really is that free form in an MMo, when you have theory craft sites telling you what to take to get the best out of your toon?

In a sandbox game like SWG that I played for 2 years, I enjoyed my BH and enjoyed the "freeform" choice, but I also like my hunter in WoW and having to use the best build out there.

In the end, what you don't understand is that I understand you don't like the game. Not a problem. You gave your reasons that even though I don't agree, there is not right or wrong on this as it's your opinion. So in the end, to you, your right it is a WoW clone so I will no longer try to convince you that it isn't.
'Best' is a subjective term. Using SWG as a skill-based system we are both familiar with, 'best' for two different people would be completely different. You may have picked all your skills to make your BH 'best' with a flame thrower, or was flame thrower a Commando weapon? (It's been years since I played, and I usually went for non-combat classes). Whatever, pick a BH weapon, and say you pick all your skills to be the best with that weapon you could be. Why, in that case, should someone choose your BH over another with the same skills?

Your hunter in WoW used the 'best' build. Best for what? DPS like every other hunter? So what made your hunter so special compared to the rest of them? Nothing. Other than gear and looks you are exactly the same as the next guy.

Sure, its fun for a while, but does it not get boring being the same as the hunter stood next to you? There is nothing there that made your character unique. This is one of the reasons I primarily used an Arcane mage. It was different to most of the others. Did it nerf my DPS? A little, sure. Did it nerf my DPS to the point where I was no longer effective? No.

This is one of the reasons I much prefer a skill-based system. Sure, you'll have people who minimax their toons, like yourself, and if that is how they want to play, then fine. But with a skill-based system, there is a lot of room for freedom in how a toon is built. You can really make unique characters, and surely that is a good thing, because it really gives opportunity to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 938
02-03-2012, 08:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort1980 View Post
'Best' is a subjective term. Using SWG as a skill-based system we are both familiar with, 'best' for two different people would be completely different. You may have picked all your skills to make your BH 'best' with a flame thrower, or was flame thrower a Commando weapon? (It's been years since I played, and I usually went for non-combat classes). Whatever, pick a BH weapon, and say you pick all your skills to be the best with that weapon you could be. Why, in that case, should someone choose your BH over another with the same skills?

Your hunter in WoW used the 'best' build. Best for what? DPS like every other hunter? So what made your hunter so special compared to the rest of them? Nothing. Other than gear and looks you are exactly the same as the next guy.

Sure, its fun for a while, but does it not get boring being the same as the hunter stood next to you? There is nothing there that made your character unique. This is one of the reasons I primarily used an Arcane mage. It was different to most of the others. Did it nerf my DPS? A little, sure. Did it nerf my DPS to the point where I was no longer effective? No.

This is one of the reasons I much prefer a skill-based system. Sure, you'll have people who minimax their toons, like yourself, and if that is how they want to play, then fine. But with a skill-based system, there is a lot of room for freedom in how a toon is built. You can really make unique characters, and surely that is a good thing, because it really gives opportunity to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
Okay, I cannot argue with a lot of what you say however for me, no matter what my skills did or what the cookie clutter build was, I was still unique in that my toon was me. I never looked at it and thought, that BM hunter has the same PVP skills as me (I PVP a lot), I just thought I liked my look, I liked my pet and I like what he can do.

Any game I play be it an MMo or an RPG, to me it's all about the look.

One thing I will knock TOR for is that it does seem everyone "looks" the same at top level and there doesn't seem to be to much variation, however I am sure in 6 months, when new gear is added and new ways to customise gear, I will start to get that "unique" look that I crave.

Right now, a black bald Jedi with a goatee is missing one thing. A purple LS. Such a crime...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 939
02-03-2012, 10:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort1980 View Post
Not true. There are MMOs out there which work differently.

City of Heroes - No real loot system or inventory. Instead, when a bad guy dies, you get cash, and maybe a consumable or salvage used to enhance your powers.
Star Wars Galaxies (the original game) - Skill based system. No levels. An entirely player driven economy.

These are just two examples from games I have played over the years. As you can see, not all of them do things the same way.

the reason TOR is so much like WoW is the same reason ****, Rift, and others are a lot like WoW. WoW was successful, and people want a piece of that pie. Result? They are not willing to deviate much from that formula.
And I can point out aspects of CoX that is the same as WoW. There is not one that is completely different from anything else out there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 940
02-03-2012, 11:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bort1980 View Post
'Best' is a subjective term. Using SWG as a skill-based system we are both familiar with, 'best' for two different people would be completely different. You may have picked all your skills to make your BH 'best' with a flame thrower, or was flame thrower a Commando weapon? (It's been years since I played, and I usually went for non-combat classes). Whatever, pick a BH weapon, and say you pick all your skills to be the best with that weapon you could be. Why, in that case, should someone choose your BH over another with the same skills?

Your hunter in WoW used the 'best' build. Best for what? DPS like every other hunter? So what made your hunter so special compared to the rest of them? Nothing. Other than gear and looks you are exactly the same as the next guy.

Sure, its fun for a while, but does it not get boring being the same as the hunter stood next to you? There is nothing there that made your character unique. This is one of the reasons I primarily used an Arcane mage. It was different to most of the others. Did it nerf my DPS? A little, sure. Did it nerf my DPS to the point where I was no longer effective? No.

This is one of the reasons I much prefer a skill-based system. Sure, you'll have people who minimax their toons, like yourself, and if that is how they want to play, then fine. But with a skill-based system, there is a lot of room for freedom in how a toon is built. You can really make unique characters, and surely that is a good thing, because it really gives opportunity to put the RPG back into MMORPG.
Then you should play GW if you don't. STO has cookie cutter builds as well with the skill point system. So we get it, you're biased. You point to things you don't care for in TOR but those same things apply here. Yet you refuse to say it because you're blinded by the bias.
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