Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 981
02-06-2012, 01:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Having options others no other MMO's UGC tools have means the Cryptic introduced original features.

These new ideas are the definition of innovative.

Please, admit you've lost this argument. It takes an adult to do something like that--rise to that level of discourse.

An opponent debating semantics instead of offering substantive, primary claims is generally a sign I've won an argument.
Sorry Darren, but isn't debating semantics what your doing too? I mean in the scheme of the discussion, we were talking about what innovation has STO brought to the table, when someone else said it had more than TOR. Your now trying to say that a feature already in other games has been improved upon and that that is the innovation?

I submitted that in the spirit of the discussion, completely new things seen in an MMo was what I assumed was the basis of the topic. UGC was in other games before STO. We are not talking about STO updating the UGC with a better tools set, that is what you have brought up.

If we are going down this route, then nearly every MMo brings something Innovative to the table, by simply updating what has been done before. EvE's levelling whilst off line I believe is innovative for an MMo (not 100% sure on this). TOR's use of a class story with cutsceens and story areas for you only (or friends if you want) is innovative in an MMo and the group mechanics where each member can have a say in the dialogue, is also innovative.

I am not trying to be smart here or as your trying to do, "win the argument", I am just saying that on this I don't agree with you. I stress this doesn't mean your wrong and the definition of Innovative is correct, however maybe the word shouldn't be used then in this discussion and it should be, what has STO brought new to the MMo genre?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 982
02-06-2012, 01:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
If we are going down this route, then nearly every MMo brings something Innovative to the table, by simply updating what has been done before. EvE's levelling whilst off line I believe is innovative for an MMo (not 100% sure on this). TOR's use of a class story with cutsceens and story areas for you only (or friends if you want) is innovative in an MMo and the group mechanics where each member can have a say in the dialogue, is also innovative.
As a matter of fact, I think this all qualifies as innovation. Or was that your point?

I definitely believe that allowing players to craft complex stories for other players is an innovation for a MMO.

But innovation alone isn't always sufficient. It's neither required nor sufficient, really. It depends on the execution and the rest of the game whether it's sufficient. Not every novel idea is a good one, and not every novel idea is executed well on the first try.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 983
02-06-2012, 03:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
As a matter of fact, I think this all qualifies as innovation. Or was that your point?

I definitely believe that allowing players to craft complex stories for other players is an innovation for a MMO.

But innovation alone isn't always sufficient. It's neither required nor sufficient, really. It depends on the execution and the rest of the game whether it's sufficient. Not every novel idea is a good one, and not every novel idea is executed well on the first try.
Yes, I was saying that EvE/TOR etc have "new features" not seen in any other MMo.

I was also saying that even though STO has a UGC tool, it's not "a new feature", as it's been seen in another MMo before. That does not mean that some of it's feautres are not innovitive, but as I mentioned before, if this is what we are judging as being innovitive in STO, then I think most MMos have something innovitive with them as they are just "hopefully" improving on an existing feature/gameplay.

Darren would have us think that he has won an argument by saying that the UGC tool in STO is better then what has come before and therefore is innovative, but I am countering that by saying he understood what we were talking about and has tried to put a "spin" on this, by being litteral in use of innovative and applying it to the Foundry.

The whole point of this initial discussion goes back to a comment made here -

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
You see, funny thing is - I like playing BOTH STO and SWToR; and find things I enjoy is both games. If you really look at my posting history, I don't give STO much of a pass either; but overall, as far as MMO gameplay and innovation, I'd say they've done more on the game mechanics side then BioWare - STO's big failinng is it is still light on Dev crreated mission content - and that is a MAJOR issue.
The debate was that I was intrigued with what was more innovative in STO than in TOR and here we are

TBH, I think we have exhausted it now. I won't convince Darren or the others and they wont convince me. Maybe there is no need for each side to convince each other.

I am still playing both. Enjoying TOR and meddling with STO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 984
02-06-2012, 07:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Having options others no other MMO's UGC tools have means the Cryptic introduced original features.

These new ideas are the definition of innovative.

Please, admit you've lost this argument. It takes an adult to do something like that--rise to that level of discourse.

An opponent debating semantics instead of offering substantive, primary claims is generally a sign I've won an argument.
Google? I used Webster's. Sorry.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 985
02-06-2012, 09:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
Yes, I was saying that EvE/TOR etc have "new features" not seen in any other MMo.

I was also saying that even though STO has a UGC tool, it's not "a new feature", as it's been seen in another MMo before. That does not mean that some of it's feautres are not innovitive, but as I mentioned before, if this is what we are judging as being innovitive in STO, then I think most MMos have something innovitive with them as they are just "hopefully" improving on an existing feature/gameplay.

Darren would have us think that he has won an argument by saying that the UGC tool in STO is better then what has come before and therefore is innovative, but I am countering that by saying he understood what we were talking about and has tried to put a "spin" on this, by being litteral in use of innovative and applying it to the Foundry.

The whole point of this initial discussion goes back to a comment made here -



The debate was that I was intrigued with what was more innovative in STO than in TOR and here we are

TBH, I think we have exhausted it now. I won't convince Darren or the others and they wont convince me. Maybe there is no need for each side to convince each other.

I am still playing both. Enjoying TOR and meddling with STO.
Exactly.

Is STO's Foundry better than CoX's AE? Sure. But it's not new to the MMO world.

But if improving is how we define "innovative" then yes, every game out there is "innovative". Even Tabula Rasa was "innovative" and we all know how that worked out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 986
02-06-2012, 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solomace View Post
The foundry. Didn't COX have the same? NWN had this too? Okay NWN wasn't an MMo but could be labled as an OMG (like some other games we know).

I don't really know much on this so I really cannot say your correct or incorrect, but I have not heard or read many post that say the foundry tools are innovated. I read that it's an excellent tool and that people enjoy using it, but equally, I hear people think it's pants.

If you are correct, then it gets its "1" thing that's innovative. Still not the amount that "some" people on here seem to label at STO.
The CoH Mission Archtect was incredibly limited in that you had VERY limited capability for adding your own dialog; and coulld not do your own maps (you had to use the existing maps, and not all those maps were nade available); and you had ZERO control over MOB spawn points at all - you basically said (I want X of this and the system randomly nplaced them for you, and where the system put them was where they stayed).

So, yes, CoH did have a UGC tool; but it was about 1/10th as powerful as STO's Foundry (even with the limitations that still exist on the STO Fioundry.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 987
02-06-2012, 10:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Strike
Innovative is something new not something more robust. So since the Foundry was not new, the word innovative does not fit. Improved might fit but that's a different definition.
By that definition SWToR is even less innovative as well, since the 'dialog wheel' and NPC cutscenes have been in most BioWare games previously.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 988
02-06-2012, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor View Post
There are reasons to criticize STO and Cryptic: the foundry's innovation is not one that you're going to win with.

STO lacks innovation in PVP, PVE, etc. but not in its UGC tools.
I know I'm late to this discussion, however any innovation if there is any that can be found in the Foundry, has already been outdone by other toolkits in other games. Not in MMO's perhaps, but compared UGC toolsets found in single-player games the isolated Foundry isn't truly innovative when you consider you could create content made for groups of players in other tools before STO was even conceived, and in much better detail at least from the story-boarding and NPC interactions perspectives.

Is the inclusion of a UGC toolset in an MMO innovative? It used to be. Is the Foundry innovative in its own right...? I doubt that Darren.

What is truly innovative about what Cryptic has done, and is doing, is the concept of one platform that is exposed to many players through an accessible game-client that allows those players to experience different worlds in different settings and create adventures for one another.

The previous statement will be true if NWO and CO both feature a Foundry system that is at least as comprehensive as the current STO Foundry is, and even then, that statement speaks not of CO, STO or NWO but of the innovation regarding all three games to share the same code-base!

An innovation that quite frankly has already been scoffed at by the playerbase when they regard STO as CO-in-TREK but I'm sure the investors would've loved that business plan if everything worked out!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 989
02-06-2012, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
The CoH Mission Archtect was incredibly limited in that you had VERY limited capability for adding your own dialog; and coulld not do your own maps (you had to use the existing maps, and not all those maps were nade available); and you had ZERO control over MOB spawn points at all - you basically said (I want X of this and the system randomly nplaced them for you, and where the system put them was where they stayed).

So, yes, CoH did have a UGC tool; but it was about 1/10th as powerful as STO's Foundry (even with the limitations that still exist on the STO Fioundry.)
This. QFT.

Yes, more powerful, more unique editors exist--but only outside MMOs.

For the genre, STO has the most powerful client-facing editor and its toolset does many things faster than even non-MMO NWN's (despite being less robust).

If we're arguing which MMO UGC tool is the most powerful with more features than any other MMO UGC tool, the Foundry wins (at least as far as released games go--a few new ones appear to be more robust but are unreleased).

Improvement is logically predicated on innovation. If something new isn't done to the design of a good or service, then there cannot be improvement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Strike
Again, you are making it fit the definition of "improved" not "innovative".

Cryptic may have one that's improved and better but they weren't the first.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm-Strike
Innovative is something new not something more robust. So since the Foundry was not new, the word innovative does not fit. Improved might fit but that's a different definition.
Innovation precedes improvement. One can only improve if one does something new.

You can't have improvement without a new change to the paradigm:
there are no car engines that run faster without contributing a new change, whether fuel source, physical design, etc..

Innovation is part of improvement because something had to change (the change is new) in order for it to improve.

QED

(I am tired of debating this; take care and enjoy both games. There are reasons to like both TOR and STO: very different reasons, mind you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 990
02-06-2012, 11:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
By that definition SWToR is even less innovative as well, since the 'dialog wheel' and NPC cutscenes have been in most BioWare games previously.
Nice try man.

As Darren pointed out with my putting the original NWN into the discussion, we are talking about MMos not single player games.

By your logic, STO is just a update of Bridge Commander and SFC?

Shesh man, you really want to try and make out that TOR is no where near as good as STO. It must really rankle you that TOR is proving to be more of a success then most STO fans wanted it to be (1.7 mil...)

I really think because STO failed, reviews were poor, no content to speak of, C-store + Subs and finally F2P, that you really wanted TOR to go down the same route and fail.

To bad, that even with it's faults, TOR fans are not only enjoying the plentiful content consisting of PVP, PVE, Crafting, A space Mini game and 16 different classes with 8 different stories to see, no cash shop (as yet ) and with updates coming out and we are not 2 months into the game, it's showing what you can do with an IP, as long as you have a developer that cares about it's image and wants to bring out a fun game.

And before the defenders come back with the same old excuse of TORs budget VS Cryptics, let me remind you how Cryptic sold/sell themselves to publishers, "we have an engine that can create MMos within 2 years". Now I don't blame Cryptic really for this, but I do blame CBS who said basically, yep go with it. And yes, once again I understand about Perpetual and the licence, but in the end, you get what you pay for and that's exactly what we go for our great IP. STO!
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