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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-03-2012, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Excalibur View Post
It should clear up by the end of the month. All of the queens will have to pay cash if they want to keep complaining about their unrealistic expectations of the game and how it failed them.
I wouldn't say "unrealistic" for a game with a 300 mil. budget, ~5 years in development, which costs the player a truck-load of money, then a monthly fee, for pretty much a single player experience.

The current TOR would have perfectly fit in KOTOR 3, but nooooooooo, we get a retail box + monthly fee, just because we get a KOTOR with a global chat?

I'm sorry if my expectations of a 2012 AAA mmorpg are too high.

Remeber that Rift was also quite hyped and played at launch. Right now...people seem to have understood that they've been paying for a wow clone (I hate this term so much, but that's life).
I believe that TOR will be getting a quick expansion and then (if unsuccessful) will become f2p or at least give up the out-of-place monthly fee.

I have actually started to see hope in STO's f2p future. And thank God for that. I would rather have a smaller company like Cryptic be successful, rather than the money-grubbing juggernaut EA we all know and hate...

I miss SW: Galaxies...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-03-2012, 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithaqua
IMO the trolling that has primarily occurred here has been in response to Cryptic's decision making abilities (or lack thereof). Is the same happening on TOR or is it more player cannibalism?
From what I saw there were a lot of butthurt WoW players playing TOR that were irked because their favorite feature wasn't in the game, yet. They assumed it was going to launch bug free. MMOs don't do that, and they never estimate the number of people coming in to play initially. They had long queues and not enough servers. They opened more and the queues have thus far, vanished. At least I've not seen any on my server.

It's more or less a contingent of whiny pre-teens and WoW Fan boys raging for one reason or another. It'll settle down. Brass tacks, BioWare made a great game, that will only get better with refinement. They didn't suffer the time constraints to push it live that Cryptic did with STO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-03-2012, 02:11 PM
You will never find a more wretched hive of ...oh you know the rest.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-03-2012, 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krtr
I wouldn't say "unrealistic" for a game with a 300 mil. budget, ~5 years in development, which costs the player a truck-load of money, then a monthly fee, for pretty much a single player experience.

The current TOR would have perfectly fit in KOTOR 3, but nooooooooo, we get a retail box + monthly fee, just because we get a KOTOR with a global chat?

I'm sorry if my expectations of a 2012 AAA mmorpg are too high.

Remeber that Rift was also quite hyped and played at launch. Right now...people seem to have understood that they've been paying for a wow clone (I hate this term so much, but that's life).
I believe that TOR will be getting a quick expansion and then (if unsuccessful) will become f2p or at least give up the out-of-place monthly fee.

I have actually started to see hope in STO's f2p future. And thank God for that. I would rather have a smaller company like Cryptic be successful, rather than the money-grubbing juggernaut EA we all know and hate...

I miss SW: Galaxies...
Let's be honest, what were you expecting for ToR at release?

My list was:

Stable servers.
Relatively bug free experience.
Server queues.
Story focused and driven content.

For the most part I got everything on that list, as for game features. I'd wait a year before I start attacking the game for the lack of any significant feature, changes, content or bug fixes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-03-2012, 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS_Excalibur View Post
Let's be honest, what were you expecting for ToR at release?

My list was:

Stable servers.
Relatively bug free experience.
Server queues.
Story focused and driven content.

For the most part I got everything on that list, as for game features. I'd wait a year before I start attacking the game for the lack of any significant feature, changes, content or bug fixes.
Like I said before, I was expecting a game worth the 300 mil budget and 5 years in development. A game worth the 60$ + 15$ monthly fee. And no, story alone does not make for a good mmo. Story is required, yes, but it is not the ONLY thing needed. Apparently, in 5 years of dev, this is the only original thing they could come up with. Take my money Bioware...I think not.

Again, TOR is KOTOR 3 basically, but with a monthly fee, because it has a global chat and players can some do missions together. I am sorry, but that is just bull$%#&.
TOR has no redeeming features, other than the dialogue mechanic, which is not an original feature to begin with (KOTOR, ME, Gothic, Risen etc).

For me, TOR = WoW + dialogue mechanic + Star Wars universe. Heck, they even went so far that instead of bats or gryphons, you use speedbikes to go from one place to another. It is just depressing to even think of this. It's like they were afraid to cross the line and deviate from the WoW recipe.
And in case people say I'm mistaking, I would also like some proof.

The problem, as many others have said, is that there is no point in paying monthly for this game, once you've finished all the careers.
Dungeons, instances, raids? Gimme a break...those are the most standard, cliche and overused things since the days of old Everquest.

When you ask someone who still plays the game why does he do it, the sole reply is "for the story".
Aha, so I guess you don't care that you're paying a monthly fee for a single player game? You don't care anything, other than the storyline?
So I guess that if WoW will get a dialogue mechanic implemented tomorrow (or Rift or Silkroad Online) you will instantly start paying and playing that game because of the storyline? Sure, sure, I believe you.

Since when do people have so low standards and expectations of a game like this?
I will tell you: because they are afraid to admit they've been ripped-off and are looking for anything that might stand-out in some way, shape or form.
Only time will make them admit that they were wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-03-2012, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by krtr
Like I said before, I was expecting a game worth the 300 mil budget and 5 years in development. A game worth the 60$ + 15$ monthly fee. And no, story alone does not make for a good mmo. Story is required, yes, but it is not the ONLY thing needed. Apparently, in 5 years of dev, this is the only original thing they could come up with. Take my money Bioware...I think not..
When STO came out it cost about the same price and had the sub too, but cost considerably less. From an STO perspective, you are getting a more polished and deeper developed game than STO was at launch, for the same price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krtr
Again, TOR is KOTOR 3 basically, but with a monthly fee, because it has a global chat and players can some do missions together. I am sorry, but that is just bull$%#&.
TOR has no redeeming features, other than the dialogue mechanic, which is not an original feature to begin with (KOTOR, ME, Gothic, Risen etc).

For me, TOR = WoW + dialogue mechanic + Star Wars universe. Heck, they even went so far that instead of bats or gryphons, you use speedbikes to go from one place to another. It is just depressing to even think of this. It's like they were afraid to cross the line and deviate from the WoW recipe.
And in case people say I'm mistaking, I would also like some proof..
It's an MMO, WoW didn't invent the genre, almost everything in WoW was taken from previous MMO's, WoW just put it together in a good way and polished it further, to me ToR has doing the same thing, taken proven mechanics from the MMO genre and polished them further. If it works, why fix it?

Eve Online has done a good job of breaking the MMO recipe, but there genuinly is only so much you can do. The developers had a target of making an MMO based on the KotOR games and in my opinion, they've done just that, but people seem annoyed that the game is like KotOR, but to be honest, that was what they wanted to do from the start, so I don't get why people are annoyed by that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krtr
The problem, as many others have said, is that there is no point in paying monthly for this game, once you've finished all the careers.
Dungeons, instances, raids? Gimme a break...those are the most standard, cliche and overused things since the days of old Everquest..
To be honest, this is an argument that has been around since MMO's began and with more games going F2P, its getting used even more so now. However, I still don't believe the F2P model is proven to be good for the genre yet, althoguh it is good at getting revenue, it does so by gouging the customer and although customers may fall for it now, time will tell how customer behavior adapts to it. For example, the grab bags in STO set a precedent for players spending alot of money on them, however, due to the way it was done, Cryptic have probably scared thier customers away from doing it again, so, whilst things like F2P may seem good now, time will tell, personally I prefer the subscription model since its way more cheaper for the customer and it doesn't fill the game with content I need to be rich to play!

Quote:
Originally Posted by krtr
When you ask someone who still plays the game why does he do it, the sole reply is "for the story".
Aha, so I guess you don't care that you're paying a monthly fee for a single player game? You don't care anything, other than the storyline?
So I guess that if WoW will get a dialogue mechanic implemented tomorrow (or Rift or Silkroad Online) you will instantly start paying and playing that game because of the storyline? Sure, sure, I believe you.
It's far to early to say. There are still very few players at level 50 and as such many players have yet to engage in the group content. Yesterday I saw a guy complaining about lack of endgame content in ToR, he was lvl 5, his main was level 35, how the hell can he make claims about the endgame? ToR has endgame raids, it has heroic flashpoints (far more than STO has), it has world bosses, it has dailies, it has a whole bunch of stuff for people to do. Once guilds start forming properly, you will find more people will start playing it for the endgame content, right now though, most players are enjoying leveling thier charactors and enjoying thier storylines. For the record, I play it cause I think its a great game, I love the storyline 'and' I love interacting with other players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krtr
Since when do people have so low standards and expectations of a game like this?
I will tell you: because they are afraid to admit they've been ripped-off and are looking for anything that might stand-out in some way, shape or form.
Only time will make them admit that they were wrong.
To be honest, I feel far more ripped off by STO, I bought multiple copies of this game for pre.order bonuses and collectors edition perks which I believed were exclusive but were later put on the C-Store, i also bought an LTS in the assumption the game would stay subscription based, due to the fact I've taken breaks from the game, I actually didn't play teh game long enough (month for month) for my intial investment in the LTS to pay off, if I'd just suscribed for the months i've played, I'd of payed less than what I got my LTS for. So in all fairness, I certainly do not feel ripped off by TOR sonce I actually payed far less for it than I did for STO. If anything Cryptics greed in regards to how they marketed the CE's and LTS has set the precedent that many players, such as myself, will never buy a CE or LTS for a game ever again, thus they've actually damaged the MMO industry with the precident they set.

As to the TOR forums, yeah, they are MMO forums, they are ALL the same, more so during the first month or so when you have the players that have bought the game but don't like it (and have a month to let everyone know how much they don't like it before thier freetime runs out). The forums here were certainly not as rosey as some people seem to portray when the game launched. After going though some threads on the TOR forums, I've seen several that are just rants over high expectations, I've even seem some complaining about bugs that have already been fixed, hell, I've even seen threads from people complaining about features that they want in the game that already are in the game, they just don't realise. Give it a few months and the core community will begin to form, people will know how to play the game and all the players that dislike the game will move on to the next new MMO that doesn't fulfil thier desires (that been the holy grail MMO that has no MMO features in it).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-04-2012, 03:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suricata View Post
It's an MMO, WoW didn't invent the genre, almost everything in WoW was taken from previous MMO's, WoW just put it together in a good way and polished it further, to me ToR has doing the same thing, taken proven mechanics from the MMO genre and polished them further. If it works, why fix it?
It's more than that. Bioware/EA knew what made WoW a success. It didn't matter if the game was any good, they only cared about the number (hence why they were saying that the game will have 2 mil players from day 1 - that's all they cared about).
So they had two options: 1. come up with an original and less mainstreamed gameplay and hope for the best or 2. implement features found in the world's most popular mmo to date and play it safe.
They chose the second option, because they were targeting the numbers (aka WoW players) and made 90% of the game similar to it.
It is clear which is their target audience.

Quote:
Eve Online has done a good job of breaking the MMO recipe, but there genuinly is only so much you can do. The developers had a target of making an MMO based on the KotOR games and in my opinion, they've done just that, but people seem annoyed that the game is like KotOR, but to be honest, that was what they wanted to do from the start, so I don't get why people are annoyed by that.
Yes, but it's a KOTOR with a monthly fee. And I've seen this argument many times: it doesn't have elaborate space combat and exploration because it is a KOTOR sequel.
Then let me ask one thing: did KOTOR have dungeons and instances which were not directly linked to the character's progression and were more like side-quests? No, in fact in KOTOR when the main story ends, the game ends. This is not the case with TOR, as they are trying to expand by using an already unoriginal, boring and overused dungeon system.
But that's it. Beyond those dungeons, there is little to justify a monthly fee, once you've finished the story part.

Not to mention that TOR is a lot (A LOT) more mainstreamed than KOTOR. So this is where the "it's a KOTOR sequel so leave it alone" excuse falls apart.

Quote:
To be honest, this is an argument that has been around since MMO's began and with more games going F2P, its getting used even more so now. However, I still don't believe the F2P model is proven to be good for the genre yet, althoguh it is good at getting revenue, it does so by gouging the customer and although customers may fall for it now, time will tell how customer behavior adapts to it. For example, the grab bags in STO set a precedent for players spending alot of money on them, however, due to the way it was done, Cryptic have probably scared thier customers away from doing it again, so, whilst things like F2P may seem good now, time will tell, personally I prefer the subscription model since its way more cheaper for the customer and it doesn't fill the game with content I need to be rich to play!
Nothing is perfect and nothing will ever be perfect. Cryptic made a good move, because they were anticipating at TOR's hype (not quality) would attract a ton of players. At the end of the day however, STO will gain more from SWTOR's partial failure.

The point is that Bioware/EA marketed this game like it was the second descent of God on Earth, the ultimate experience, the best of the best. And TOR really isn't like that at all. Apart from the dialogues, also found in other games I mentioned my previous post, there is nothing original, nothing groundbreaking. TOR has a deja-vu feeling to it, which could have been avoided in the 5 years this game was in development...
So the question comes: why pay for it? To finish the main storyline. Fine, I totally understand that. But what justifies paying for it beyond that point?

In my opinion, TOR was a gold mine. A chance to really change the way MMOs are, a new generation. Instead, we got a disappointing and unoriginal experience, which continues the themepark mmo trend which started with Blizzard's product.

And I continue to say that people have some damn low expectations for a game like TOR and expect so little in return for their money.
Again, please prove me wrong.

Remember, this is the year 2012 and so little progress was made in regards to TOR. "Polishing" older mechanics does not justify this game's existence.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-04-2012, 04:34 AM
Considering that all the most Recent "I-Quit" Troll/flame posts here ended with "I am leaving for TOR", I find this to be no great surprise.

xD
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
01-04-2012, 09:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anazonda View Post
Considering that all the most Recent "I-Quit" Troll/flame posts here ended with "I am leaving for TOR", I find this to be no great surprise.

xD
And the same people there now do the same.. an wil leave for (insert any upcoming MMO)... :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
01-05-2012, 01:25 PM
I suspected as much. Good thing I statyed away from it. Give it 6 mo -1 Yr to clear the majority fo the bugs and become playable
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