Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 81
01-07-2012, 12:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
You really do not understand tanking do you?
To be correct here, I obviously don't understand your type of tanking. A lot of people will not do so Or let's say, I don't consider your type of tanking as save and effective.

Unfortunatly (for you) and fortunatly (for me) I'm doing just fine against Elite Tac Cubes with a Fleet Escort as long as I keep my shields up and the bleedthrough under control. As long as shields as primary line of defense prove that effective for me, I'll go on with what I do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Armor focused tanker has around 186,000 effective hitpoints at 68% resistance and around 1500 hitpoints regen a second. With a few minor shield skills/BO.

Shield focused tanker has what around 92,800 effective hitpoints at 75% resistance and 800 hitpoints a second regen. With a few minor hull/armor skills/BO.

Shields only stop an extra 7% damage. So why would I care if my shields are up? Shields are just a small hitpoint buffer that means my main armor tank has to heal a little less.
And as long as you don't see the difference between projectiles and energy weapons hitting shields it will be pointless going on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Commander_Knuhteb
What's the auto borg heal trigger? Sounds pretty cool.
He's talking about the 2 and 3-set bonus of the Borg ship set. Simply said its an Hazard Emitter and Transfer Shield Strength (with different stats) that can be triggered when you get shot.

http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Auto...tion_Sequencer
http://www.stowiki.org/Ability:_Mult...e_Shield_Array
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 82
01-07-2012, 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by decker999 View Post
"And as long as you don't see the difference between projectiles and energy weapons hitting shields it will be pointless going on here."
I do see the difference, it is you who do not seems to get how small the difference is. Those numbers I posted 186k for armor and 92k for shields factored in the difference between projectiles hitting an amor focused setup V hitting a shield focused setup. Even with that resistance difference amor setups have more effective hitpoints then shield focused setups.

If we ignore bleed though shields stop 7% more damage then armor which is a small amount. If you factor in bleed though then you can in many situations see a shield setup with shields up take more damage from projectiles then an armor focus setup.



Quote:
Originally Posted by decker999 View Post
" Unfortunatly (for you) and fortunatly (for me) I'm doing just fine against Elite Tac Cubes with a Fleet Escort as long as I keep my shields up and the bleedthrough under control. As long as shields as primary line of defense prove that effective for me, I'll go on with what I do."
How is that unfortunate for me? Just because you use an inferior tanking setup that still works it does not mean I am wrong. Swapping the argument to say but my shield tank works does not prove anything as I never said shield tanks do not work. I only said armor tanking works better.

I have nothing against how you tank, I am against how you say my tanking method completely fails when it works better. I am against how you say I will only last seconds and it's a stunt which is not true. As my screenshot and math shows I am doing fine at Elite STF's even though you say I fail.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 83
01-07-2012, 10:28 AM
Ok this has nothing to do with the thread generation skill anymore, so this will be the last post about it. Your screenshot doesn't even tell us if you are running any resistance buffs here or not, but even if, diminishing returns on armor are far worse than they are on shields. Also shields reduce every kind of kinetic impact before something else even kicks in. Your numbers on shield tanking also are far too low, but since you are armor tanking you can't check them so no biggy.

Example: Sci/Fleet Escort (I know, no cruiser, but i didn't have time for something else after the last patch and it will show some numbers)

Shield capacity: 10,842
Shield power setting: 40, results in 61 + EPtS1 = 82 total (with 2 copies of EPtS1 its always active)
Shield resists:
16.4% from shield power setting
18% from EPtS1
33% from Science Fleet (since we are under heavy fire, this 1 will be active)
total shield resistance: 0.836 * 0.82 * 0.67 = 0.459 (aka 54.1%)
this will give a total capacity of: 10,842 / 0.459 = 23,620 for 1 shield facing (and thus about 94,000 total capacity with shield distribution / tac team)

Reverse Shield Polarity 1 (which is quite common on Fleet Escorts) can easily fill your shields back up if you balance them. TSS could be used to gain additional resistance and regeneration instead of PH.

Hull: 39,569
Resistance (normal): about 24% for both kinetic and plasma (that's with 1 Neutronium console and some points in armor skills
Resistance (with buffs active): 65.4% kinetic, 57.4 plasma (that's with Brace, SFM, PH1 or HE2, Dampening Field on about 50 aux power; could be further enhanced by using an aux battery)
this will give a total hull strength (against kinetic hits) of 39,569 / 0.346 = 114,361
Using Aux2SIF1 instead of Reverse Shield Polarity gives further resists here.

Remember this is a Fleet Escort and even with full resists up I know that I will eventually be 1-shotted if my shields are at zero. Your hull strength is obviously higher and and I'm quite sure you'll survive things that 1-shot me, but we are still looking at 1 single hit here. If you really plan to be the tank and keep the attention of multiply enemies or a tac cube for the whole time, you will have a serious problem.

Your screenshot says 7,155 as shield capacity and if you really do nothing for your resistance, your total shield cap is way below mine. This of course only without any points in shield performance, shield emitters and shield systems and without EPtS and other abilities. On the other hand, if you use anything to help with shields, you are not a pure armor tanker but a hybrid with focus on armor. This would make you just a standard cruiser with weak shields and this whole discussion obsolete.

Oh, and I never said you fail, but that I don't consider your way as save and effective as treating shields as important, so don't feel too much talked down here. I'm far away from being an uber pro, but if you really think armor tanking is so much better, please go to the PvP forums and tell the real experts how wrong they are. I'm sure this will at least generate some laughs. Nuff said, back to topic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 84
01-07-2012, 12:08 PM
Wait my numbers are two low? But the numbers you just posted are even lower. Your numbers also prove my point that defence from armor is much better then defence from shields. So it makes more sense to max out armor as much as possible, not max out shields which give you less defence so you die easier.
PvP Elitists and other people can laugh as much as they want. The math proves me right and so does in game performance.

You keep saying focusing on shields is safer and more effective, but I am not seeing that in game or by the math. Focusing on amor with a small amount of shields is the safer and more effective tanking method.
As far as I can see Shields don't reduce kinetic damage twice. You just get one flat out 75% reduction which is why that most people focus on shields end up takeing more damage from kinetic weapons then people focused on armor.

A pure armor only tank will beat a pure shield only tank.
A hybrid tank focused on amor with little shields will beat a hybrid tank focused on shields with little amor.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 85
01-07-2012, 12:58 PM
Maybe I was a bit unclear with the shield kinetic resist thing. Not my first language, so I apologize. To make it more clear, you don't have to do anything to get this 75% resist on shields as long as you have at least 1 point shield capacity. I don't need consoles, shield power, BOff abilities or whatever, just capacity. To ignore this for your defense is not the best idea.

My numbers are for an escort with low shield power, remember that. You posted 92k for your cruiser, which is way to high for your ship, but way to low for a well specced cruiser that utilizes shield and hull resists/armor. Hell, I could easily up my shield numbers by simply shifting power from engines to shields and using an aux battery before TSS.

If my 160k theoretical shield cap by using RSP and TSS with an escort + more than 100k hull proves your point that your 180k hull + maybe 70k shields for a cruiser is impressive, ok. I'm impressed. Feel better now? It doesn't matter what you see in the game if you don't talk to those people about their setup. I know that a lot of people litteraly go down in seconds, nothing new. If you really want to be a tank and this thread generaton skill works as intended, you'll need both shields and hull as good as possible. As a cruiser captain it is obviously easier for you to keep your hull up as it is for sci ships (specially after the nerf of Hazard Emitters), but you have enough slots to get shield heals/resists in addition.

Edit: Missed that point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
A pure armor only tank will beat a pure shield only tank.
A hybrid tank focused on amor with little shields will beat a hybrid tank focused on shields with little amor.
I think i wrote it in my first post here. Nobody with half a brain would only shield tank. As long as you keep your shields up and the bleedthrough under control (which is not that difficult to achieve) you will be fine, without exposing your hull. Beside that, it depends a bit on the conditions. When the Borg were spamming shield neutralizers left and right, an armor tank was superior and I did armor tank, but nowadays its just to dangerous to rely on only 1 thing if you get focus fired. It is simply easier to keep shields up.

Edit 2: Skilled my cruiser captain today and noticed that I made a mistake with the shield resistance here. Theoretical shield cap for my escort is 94,000 without RSP and TSS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 86
01-07-2012, 01:25 PM
As an engineer in a cruiser I took the first 3 levels of this. Not sure how much aggro I can hold to protect those squishy escorts. Main issue would appear that as I play tank, no one thinks about tossing some healing my way. And I go BOOM!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 87
01-07-2012, 01:30 PM
Just a heads up!

your borg hull heal proc is being "rebalanced"

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...51&postcount=1
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 88
01-07-2012, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigduckie
Just a heads up!

your borg hull heal proc is being "rebalanced"

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...51&postcount=1
Yeah saw that. Quite funny that they adjust the old sets (sorry, bring them on par) so the new ones look better.

So different question. Has anybody invested in that skill and used in a good amount of engagements to tell if you really can hold the aggro without dealing high damage? I have an engineer in a Nebula and while he is a tanking monster, its difficult to hold attention in STFs. I'm using APDelta and FBP3, so if Thread Generation really works, this sound like fun to try.
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