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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
01-08-2012, 01:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzy
Leviathan99, you do realize that probably everyone, myself included have waited for that something they wanted in STO and most have not gotten it.
I do. But maybe if we start putting a human dimension on this stuff, they won't keep moving to the next shiny target every time it seems inconvenient to acknowledge the last set of goals. Maybe if everybody started talking about that day they asked from work to finish up their diplomacy, how they hired a babysitter so that they and their wife could run STFs, that computer you saved up to buy just to get more out of your STO experience because you really wanted to see that fleet starbase... If everybody, instead of dumping their passion into nerd rage, could just say, "Look. I had my heart set on THIS feature that you promised. Here's how I contorted my plans around it." If people could say these things, maybe the forums would be less "annoying" or "inconvenient" and all the dropped goals could at the very least become a monument to a sense of disappointment that is human and relatable.

For the most part, I don't think folks on the forums are trolling or flaming, that we're demons or disingenuous. But I think folks at Cryptic have been developing thick skin, have been putting the blinders up. Have been using us as the standard for "unreasonable demands" for a long time and that idea has been spreading through their company; most of the dev interviews for the last six months have expressed this idea in some form.

It's defensiveness. They're being cagey and backing away from goals whenever they become inconvenient.

If there's one thing I've learned from years of service, it's that while some people are just jerks, when a customer is disappointed, you have to take ownership of that. I don't think the devs are and that's at the heart of the miscommunications, accusations, and frustrations. They've developed an "Oh, that's just the forums; nothing they say or that we say to them matters."

I feel like they're in a vicious cycle. They keep having to come up with new business schemes and systems to "make rent." But that only happens because their last plan of action needed to be nurtured longer.

We're sweating over the same game. Players are making sacrifices too and have a lot of emotions wrapped up in this stuff, whatever your dropped promise is, and I think everyone who has one should maybe just tell THEIR story and make it clear that they're a flesh and blood human being who is passionate about this game and, at the end of the day, all that most of us are asking is for the devs to be no less passionate than we are about their own game. If they could really demonstrate that -- jeez -- I think this game could still have a really great future.

As is, I think they're burned out and sick of us riding them when maybe they need a reminder that we're real people and they need, NEED to be as passionate as we are.

That's it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
01-08-2012, 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I do. But maybe if we start putting a human dimension on this stuff, they won't keep moving to the next shiny target every time it seems inconvenient to acknowledge the last set of goals. Maybe if everybody started talking about that day they asked from work to finish up their diplomacy, how they hired a babysitter so that they and their wife could run STFs, that computer you saved up to buy just to get more out of your STO experience because you really wanted to see that fleet starbase... If everybody, instead of dumping their passion into nerd rage, could just say, "Look. I had my heart set on THIS feature that you promised. Here's how I contorted my plans around it." If people could say these things, maybe the forums would be less "annoying" or "inconvenient" and all the dropped goals could at the very least become a monument to a sense of disappointment that is human and relatable.

For the most part, I don't think folks on the forums are trolling or flaming, that we're demons or disingenuous. But I think folks at Cryptic have been developing thick skin, have been putting the blinders up. Have been using us as the standard for "unreasonable demands" for a long time and that idea has been spreading through their company; most of the dev interviews for the last six months have expressed this idea in some form.

It's defensiveness. They're being cagey and backing away from goals whenever they become inconvenient.

If there's one thing I've learned from years of service, it's that while some people are just jerks, when a customer is disappointed, you have to take ownership of that. I don't think the devs are and that's at the heart of the miscommunications, accusations, and frustrations. They've developed an "Oh, that's just the forums; nothing they say or that we say to them matters."

I feel like they're in a vicious cycle. They keep having to come up with new business schemes and systems to "make rent." But that only happens because their last plan of action needed to be nurtured longer.

We're sweating over the same game. Players are making sacrifices too and have a lot of emotions wrapped up in this stuff, whatever your dropped promise is, and I think everyone who has one should maybe just tell THEIR story and make it clear that they're a flesh and blood human being who is passionate about this game and, at the end of the day, all that most of us are asking is for the devs to be no less passionate than we are about their own game. If they could really demonstrate that -- jeez -- I think this game could still have a really great future.

As is, I think they're burned out and sick of us riding them when maybe they need a reminder that we're real people and they need, NEED to be as passionate as we are.

That's it.
Leviathan's right. I once came across a link on these forums to an "article" someone had written on their personal website that had to do with "guilds." It was an old article, probably about gaming back in the 80's or something. But it laid out what happens when the developers start to see their players as the enemies and broke down the community on both sides of the fence into different categories.

It was a great post, just as relevant to STO as it was to whatever games that person was talking about. Some of you are probably familiar with what I'm talking about and may even know the link. And what that article boiled down to, after I read it, was that STO is in serious jeopardy. If the devs see the forum community as a bunch of "whining tools, impossible to please" then we've pretty much already lost.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
01-08-2012, 03:08 PM
Quote:
And what that article boiled down to, after I read it, was that STO is in serious jeopardy. If the devs see the forum community as a bunch of "whining tools, impossible to please" then we've pretty much already lost.
which only proves my point.

if there's anyone who's driving the devs away, it's the playerbase by being impossible to please. i realize they have a right to be disappointed, be angry, all that... but the viciousness they've shouted at the devs is one step forward, two steps back, and that's at best

what this game really needs, as one step of many, is for the general playerbase to mature (or at the very least, to show more maturity)

it's a sad situation, really
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
01-08-2012, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek17
which only proves my point.

if there's anyone who's driving the devs away, it's the playerbase by being impossible to please. i realize they have a right to be disappointed, be angry, all that... but the viciousness they've shouted at the devs is one step forward, two steps back, and that's at best

what this game really needs, as one step of many, is for the general playerbase to mature (or at the very least, to show more maturity)

it's a sad situation, really
Maybe the DEVS should show some maturity!

(Yeah I know what I just did there, thats the gag)

But seriously, if that is a problem, the Devs could just as easily read between the lines of "whine" posts and gather some feedback from them, it's in there. I don't think it is a problem though, they're happy to listen to us when things are going well but the focus has shifted to profit, and when we get annoyed by things like grab bags, suddenly we're the ignorable vocal minority (both here and on Champs, I see a pattern...).

Theres always an amount of flaming on any forum, but here its out of control, its everywhere and it s a hell of their own making, well, mostly Stahl's making, raising expectations so high and falling so short. If this is the problem, if they're getting down hearted to the point they're not even going to try, then maybe they should suck it up and get on with trying.

Nut as I say I dont think thast the reason, I thinks is because it'll take mroe time and (especially) money to do so they're not going to try, instead adopting the PWE ethic of making the most money out of the bare minimum they can do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
01-08-2012, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek17
which only proves my point.

if there's anyone who's driving the devs away, it's the playerbase by being impossible to please. i realize they have a right to be disappointed, be angry, all that... but the viciousness they've shouted at the devs is one step forward, two steps back, and that's at best

what this game really needs, as one step of many, is for the general playerbase to mature (or at the very least, to show more maturity)

it's a sad situation, really
It does not prove your point at all. No offense, but you come across as much more brash than I do. There are plenty of people on these forums who express themselves constructively (Leviathan being one of them) and then there are those who do not, your post quoted here being a fairly good example of that. But please don't derail this thread. You're basically blaming the players for an inferior game experience. Really?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
01-08-2012, 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek17
which only proves my point.

if there's anyone who's driving the devs away, it's the playerbase by being impossible to please. i realize they have a right to be disappointed, be angry, all that... but the viciousness they've shouted at the devs is one step forward, two steps back, and that's at best

what this game really needs, as one step of many, is for the general playerbase to mature (or at the very least, to show more maturity)

it's a sad situation, really
That's pretty ridiculous. This is a game where no storyline content was released for more than 9 months. Even the Doff system was months in coming. And we're "hard to please"?

Then we get fed a lot of crap in the transition to F2P, with all the feedback about how we didn't like many of the changes basically ignored. And we got sold a rip-off box with 0.5% chance of actually getting the one good prize on top of it all.

The fact that people are even here at all shows that we're actually pretty easy to please, IMO. The actions of Cryptic are what is irritating the community. Sure there might be a few flamers who don't express themselves well, but they are just reacting to the same things that many of us are upset about. There's also plenty of feedback of what they could/should do differently.

So now they run for cover and don't want to hear it, and "we're" to blame? I'm sorry, but we're their customers. We're the ones giving them money. They need to listen to us.

Hopefully once the first 3 months or so of F2P wears off and all the F2Ps start saying the same thing that we have been all along, they'll start listening again. Right now it's just too easy to believe the fantasy that a bunch of new F2Ps are going to flood in and make us all irrelevant, and that they'll, for some unknown reason, be happier with the game's lack of content, et al.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
01-08-2012, 05:06 PM
Quote:
You're basically blaming the players for an inferior game experience. Really?
that is not what i said (and if it was implied, i apologize)

what i said was, in essence, blaming some of the playerbase, for giving the devs heck, just because the devs have ONLY done what they can, instead of the magic answer to their problems.

some of these players give the devs NO credit for they've done and are doing, despite their personal feelings. that's the impression i got, and am saying

and yeah, sorry, i can be a bit brash. seeing others hate on things i like, especially with no real reason or excuse, it pushes my berserk button. it's a struggle to be on these forums, but i do it anyway, because there are good people here.

so yeah, maybe i went too far... i apologize for it, to everyone
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
01-08-2012, 05:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Collier
Theres always an amount of flaming on any forum, but here its out of control, its everywhere and it s a hell of their own making, well, mostly Stahl's making, raising expectations so high and falling so short. If this is the problem, if they're getting down hearted to the point they're not even going to try, then maybe they should suck it up and get on with trying.
I don't agree that the problems are Stahl's making. I think if you had any MMO which had as little content as STO, and went as long as it did producing no new content, you'd have a result like this.

I actually think it's pretty unprecedented to see a company produce as little content for an MMO, as Cryptic has. If it's not unprecedented, then I highly doubt those other games are still around.

If the game had been designed to be an pseudo SP/MP like Guild Wars with no monthly fee, where the majority of money was made off the box sales, then it might be understandable. But this was billed as an MMO, and we were getting charged a monthly fee.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
01-08-2012, 05:11 PM
Quote:
So now they run for cover and don't want to hear it, and "we're" to blame?
some of us, yeah

the devs have done what they can with what they had and have now, and all the forums have really done, is give them heck for it?

some of it's justified, that's true. but the way some people have spoken about it, ot gives the wrong impression to the devs (raging and haters, as opposed to constructive).

and as i repeat, only some of us have done that. not all
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
01-08-2012, 05:21 PM
I feel bad for Leviathan, because his post is just getting buried and derailed. There's something he wants, that he was promised, and he went to great lengths to share why this was important to him. He did, in fact, "humanize" himself with this request.

And while I don't wish to (nor need to) speak for him, I think the bottom line of what he was saying is that we were promised certain things, time and time again, and they were never delivered. Then, D'Angelo comes along and says, "Well, I had no idea."

Well, I just don't accept that answer. Yes, you did!

Was he not the lead programmer for this project before becoming interim executive producer? And even if he were not, what's one of the first things you do when you take over for someone else? You examine the history of that person's job so you aren't coming into the job blindfolded or blindsided.

This is about accountability.

While I appreciate D'Angelo actually sharing what he perceives to be realistic goals with us, I don't think it is responsible to "claim ignorance" about the promises that were made for going on close to two years now. That is not good leadership in my opinion, and as a result, it makes it more difficult to trust what we are told.

There is a supreme lack of trust between the players and the company, with good reason. At this point in the game's history, you should not compound that problem further. And I agree with Nagorak -- this MMO is so sparse of content and features that I'd be hard-pressed to find positive things to say to the developers.

All I've seen is tweaking and re-tweaking of existing systems without much effort put into anything new, while bugs remain persistent, and we receive this unbelievable news directly from the interim executive producer that falls so short of promises and expectations that it would be pretty much impossible for him to fail while at the same time showing a complete lack of understanding of what it is the majority of players really want, expect, and have waited two years for.
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