Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-11-2012, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas45 View Post
The featured episodes have proven that Cryptic is getting with the program and understanding the Trek formula - you can complain all you want about the lack of these missions but seeing as though they are the latest creations it is clear that it is fitting with Star Trek.
Not that you're wrong there, but when FE's are few and far between instead of being the bread and butter of the game, it's no wonder the game itself feels less than what it should be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas45 View Post
And to the complaints about the lack of exploration in environments. It is boring in any MMO even in most games, most people forget about it quite quickly and just want to get quests done and MMO's are absolutely the best example of this.
When all you have to "discover" is objects to click on, yes, that indeed is the case with exploration in MMO's. However there have been countless suggestions on the STO forum on how to implement exploration that would be meaningful to STO. Bottom line is that all of those suggestions require time and effort which will never be directly translatable back to actual income for Cryptic. Therefore I doubt we'll ever see anything worth being called STAR TREK Exploration in STO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas45 View Post
Cryptic could make the environments look amazing with countless paths but it would serve no purpose and everything in an MMO boils down to shooting something and pressing the 'Use' key.
Everything in every game eventually boils down to those elements, however, without allowing the player to immerse themselves in the game by having ownership over how things are dealt with you risk losing the player eventually once they reach max-level or even sooner if they're simply bored with your game because they see through your ruse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas45 View Post
The only way to make it more interesting is more puzzle gameplay and more interesting mini-games - actual exploration would serve no purpose and a complete waste of production time.
Puzzle gameplay is nice and certainly has its place, however that's not a path to salvation in my opinion. What's required is strong narration, strong and personal background stories, dynamic missions and environments that allow players to choose paths... fail in some and succeed in others.

Cryptic can't really sit there and make the game they feel alright with and wonder why we're dissatisfied with their efforts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-11-2012, 12:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
Really? name a single instance where Romulans' on a Romulan held base/planet use, as a norm, Federation equipment.

I realize this is a small and seemingly minor issue but when you add all of them together, it has a diminishing effect on the feeling of immersion. I play this game exclusively for space missions...and the fact that a 120 year old ship out performs a newer ship is sad. The fact that my ships can't do so much of what I saw in the series is a big disappointment, ie: can't warp out of a battle and only Klingons have an accurate cloak. Plus
the silly things like 2/5th of my crew incapacitated/dead from a 3 minute battle only to be replenished in the blink of an eye and all without ever visiting a Starbase.

It's silly...which is how 99% of Cryptic designed ships look....

If you had anyone on the design team that watched, enjoyed and knew anything about Star Trek....these issues would not exist.
the federation equipment is fairly easy: the Federation has been sending humanitarian aid ever since the destruction of Romulus/Remus, which includes equipment so think it of it as borrowed equipment, which is an exception to the rule

and a lot of your other issues can't be done correctly because THIS IS A GAME. there must be laws and rules to things that can and can't be done

and seriously, by your last statement, just shows how much you know about the STO's teams love about Star Trek: zip, zilch, nada, ZERO
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
01-11-2012, 12:31 PM
I hate going against a GM or developer because I always come away from it feeling that I was in the wrong for the simple fact that they are god and can do whatever they like, including ban me if I'm too publicly vocal about my feelings on a particular matter. That being said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
I fully agree that there are definitely ways that we could (and should) incorporate more Trekocity into the game.
Read the forums. It would take both my hands and both my feet to count how many actually helpful posts there are here about how little improvements could be implemented without breaking the game. And to catch you before you say it, don't bring up "code" or "we don't know how the game engine works". Many of the suggested changes are actually really simple to implement. The only time sink would be actually writing for it. Which sort of makes me(yes, only me, not the whole community) wonder why some of these changes are not being actually looked into.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
But we cannot rewrite the entire game from scratch to fit the ideal. We can only make improvements on what we work on in the future, ant touch up what we find is the most broken/untrue to lore/canon that we can.
Ohhh, right now there is sooooo much that is "broken/untrue to lore/canon". Just ask. And this isn't just my own personal opinion, this is a statement reflecting the multitude of others posts in the past revolving around the evil word 'canon'. Now, to play devils advocate here, if the reason you are only going to give out two featured episodes a year is because you are actually working on many of these "broken/untrue to lore/canon" problems that are spread through out these forums. Then I am happy. But, on the flip side, as someone else pointed out in this very thread, it's been two years, and the only lore appropriate fix I personally have seen is the STF Borg learned how to (finally...)adapt. And this was only after(if other posters are to be believed in my thread about this earlier) many posts about how badly the Borg were handled in game. And that is only the tip of the ice burg.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Mediocrity is never the goal. If we miss our mark and end up there, I apologize, but the intention is to stay true to the subject matter.
I actually think LordOfPit covered that part rather well. If I read what he wrote properly, for anyone who actually watched a series of star trek, mediocre is being polite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
Oh, and there are some serious, hardcore Trek nerds on the team. Don't doubt that for a second.
I've stated this twice in two posts, and more than two hundred times in game and to friends. I maintain that the designers of the original engine did not watch a single episode of Star Trek at the start of this project. And completely disregarded episodes and entire series as they saw fit after when canon started to be brought up. This trend continues two years later as when new things are added, they aren't changes to make things canon, but rather back pedal 2409 excuses as to why things are so screwed up right now. After two years, I'm actually surprised that the official path to 2409 page doesn't have the text: "In 2408, the Federation adopted a shoot first policy, and that's secretly what started the conflict with the Klingons, Romulans, Hirogen, Breen, Cardassians, Jem'hadar, Mirrior Universe, the Undine and the Borg."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
01-11-2012, 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
Really? name a single instance where Romulans' on a Romulan held base/planet use, as a norm, Federation equipment.

I realize this is a small and seemingly minor issue but when you add all of them together, it has a diminishing effect on the feeling of immersion. I play this game exclusively for space missions...and the fact that a 120 year old ship out performs a newer ship is sad. The fact that my ships can't do so much of what I saw in the series is a big disappointment, ie: can't warp out of a battle and only Klingons have an accurate cloak. Plus
the silly things like 2/5th of my crew incapacitated/dead from a 3 minute battle only to be replenished in the blink of an eye and all without ever visiting a Starbase.

It's silly...which is how 99% of Cryptic designed ships look....

If you had anyone on the design team that watched, enjoyed and knew anything about Star Trek....these issues would not exist.
Sadly, things like this happen when you translate an IP into the MMO medium. Gameplay trumps everything else- that's why crew regenerates rather having you go to a starbase after every mission (or worse, sit derelict since you bit off more than you could chew and got your entire crew killed).

Additionally, Trek canon becomes an issue as well- battle cloaks are for Klingons and Romulans. Feds had very few examples and by treaty weren't supposed to have them. That isn't Cryptic, that is the shows. What is canon also changes between shows (and how fans perceive it)- some fans bemoan the prevalence of shooting over diplomacy that they see as the critical to Trek, yet somehow forget Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and Archer destroyed a heck of a lot of ships (and lives) in there careers, that much of DS9 was devoted to the Dominion War, and most of the movies ended with explosions rather than handshakes. And don't get me started on ship design- yes there are guidelines, but the IP itself violated its own guidelines several times. I personally don't mind the Cryptic designs. As for a 120 yr old ship being more powerful than a new one- you think it's silly, yet a large number of fans absolutely want a tier 5 Connie and are mad Cryptic won't give it to them.

A MMO is designed to appeal to as many people as possible. While Cryptic wants to appeal to Trek fans, Trek fans aren't enough to keep the game alive. Some things get sacrificed for broader appeal- any MMO with a known IP has this issue (see Lord of the Rings Online and Star Wars Galaxies). I get the sense Cryptic really tries to be as Trek as possible within that constraint, rather than SOE which just gave up on sticking with canon in Galaxies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-11-2012, 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tumerboy View Post
This, this, a thousand times this.

Everyone wants something different. A 'true' Trek game in your eyes, might be entirely boring to someone else. I mean, who wants to sit at the conn 8 hours a day, waiting for something to happen. And what those people find exciting, you might find don't match your ideals for Trek.

Remove the word Trek from the above, and you describe the dilemma of making any video game, let alone an MMO. Do you focus on one aspect that some people REALLY love? Or do you try to hit a few different aspects to draw in more players. The bottom line is that video games companies are businesses, and thus, have to try to appeal to the broadest customer base they can. We still really want this to be all about Trek, but we cannot build a game for 8 people, and as such, there are some points that have to be hit, in order to appeal to the masses.
Crap. Utter useless tripe.

The masses want stuff to do, Tumber. They want Trek like missions, action, adventure, romance, discovery. You lot have failed to deliver it, trailing along the mob with promises and short term reward in exchange for real world money, ON TOP OF our monthly subscription fees. All of your competition has managed to generate expansion packs and content for their subscribers. All of them. Even the F2P.

What you guys keep failing to do is to generate content for your customers. Instead, you built the Foundry so we could make things to entertain ourselves. This isn't a sandbox, this isn't Star Wars Galaxies. So now we're on the eve of Free to Play Launch, you've strung us all along for 2 years with promises of milk and honey and delivered what? Horse Squeeze. You redid the ground game, redid all of our skill points, and gave us a CARD GAME.

In the long term, you are alienating and enraging the very people you are hoping to milk cash from. In this horrible economy, I have to ask you. Does that sound wise to you? There is a reason a lot of folks went to go play The Old Republic. There is a reason why STOKed is no longer producing Podcasts on your behalf.

Cryptic has managed to not cater to the masses, but to enrage them. Whether that torpedoes your endeavors or not down the road, only time will tell. I for one, will continue to enjoy the use of your bandwidth, hard work and sweat without dropping so much as another dime on this software. Until, or unless I see real change, and real content being pumped out of your Occupied offices.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
01-11-2012, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trek17
and a lot of your other issues can't be done correctly because THIS IS A GAME. there must be laws and rules to things that can and can't be done
But is the GAME part that great, either?
The Mogai Escort is possibly one of the most resilient ships to fight currently in PvE, since it has Tactical Team. But what is it's "combat tactic"? It activates Cannon Rapid Fire and Evasive Maneuers, ending up plinking with its turret against your hopefully Emergency Power to Shields boosted shields for no effect, while it's dual cannons are sitting idle because it's stupid maneuver doesn't even bring the player ship in its firing arc. The generic NPC Cruiser pops a shield of invulnerability at the start of battle before it has even taken any damage at all, meaning that it cannot benefit from any innate healing it receives.
Neither ship's behavior changes when you increase the difficulty.
Science Vessels take forever to kill anything in PvE because the enemy doesn't even use abilities where the SV's abilities are relevant against (some NPCs even get extra resistance against certain science powers). Best choice for anyone regardless of class is to fly an Escort.

No, the GAME part of STO is merely mediocre as well.

And why do we not have branching missions? Startrek 25th Anniversary gave us more options how to handle a mission than STO. (And it came with a neat "Starfleet Commendation Rating" at the end as well). Final Unity had more.

Why does my Captain do all the interactions? I've got an Engineer by my side, if there's an Engineering problem, shouldn't he use the computer or device, instead of standing by idly? Again, 25th Anniversary did this better!
Oh, and while my captain really interacts with everything and everyone regardless of his own qualifactions and that of his Bridge Officers - the real ideas how to solve a problem are really only that of his NPC BOs. He can't come up with his own plan, and he can be hardly called the decision-maker. His only decision is when to do what his bridge crew tells him to do.
In the Foundry, he's only limited to a single line of text for anything he says.

At best, this has to do with the Game Engine itself being unsuited for the type of gameplay that a Startrek game would require. It has nothing to do with the fact that it is is a game, t hough, because you can program games that do all this. (Heck, even TOR, with a relatively rudimentary companion system compared to STO Bridge Officer system, let's companions interact with the environment. Even if it is just for gathering crafting resource nodes).

Quote:
Sadly, things like this happen when you translate an IP into the MMO medium. Gameplay trumps everything else- that's why crew regenerates rather having you go to a starbase after every mission (or worse, sit derelict since you bit off more than you could chew and got your entire crew killed
There is no need to program a game in a way so that you lose hundreds or thousands of crew men during the average fight. And if a single combat is as engaging and interesting (or even more so) than a kill 5 enemies mission, it wouldn't even matter if you'd limp back to a Starbase afterwards. Because hey - you just completed a mission. Or maybe we just skip the boring limping back to starbase part - episode is over, magical episode reset button is pressed, next episode, the ship is in perfect state as usual at the start of most episodes.

Quote:
What is canon also changes between shows (and how fans perceive it)- some fans bemoan the prevalence of shooting over diplomacy that they see as the critical to Trek, yet somehow forget Kirk, Picard, Sisko, Janeway, and Archer destroyed a heck of a lot of ships (and lives) in there careers, that much of DS9 was devoted to the Dominion War, and most of the movies ended with explosions rather than handshakes. And don't get me started on ship design- yes there are guidelines, but the IP itself violated its own guidelines several times. I personally don't mind the Cryptic designs. As for a 120 yr old ship being more powerful than a new one- you think it's silly, yet a large number of fans absolutely want a tier 5 Connie and are mad Cryptic won't give it to them.
Of course Startrek had plenty of space combats. That's not the issue, and I doubt anyone is forgetting that. Most people remember these episodes fondly. But Starfleet generally doesn't shoot first. Not even Kirk. In the war, yes, they did mount offenses. But where is the point where we offer people to surrender? Where do we beam aboard survivors? Where does the enemy choose to retreat?
All that is important to really create a Startrek feeling. We have no such moments.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-11-2012, 12:59 PM
Okay, I just needed to post this because I felt sort of bad for all the direct attacks on Tumerboy.

I can see him sitting there in his office, surrounded by several of his friends/coworkers looking at the computer screen showing this very thread. At the beginning Tumerboy saying "Seriously guys, I think I should post in this thread and see if I can smooth over some ruffled feathers." And his friends/coworkers all shaking their heads with the collective "Don't do it man, they will tear you apart, chew you up and spit you out."

Then after two attempts at it he's sitting there with those same friends/coworkers saying "Wow, they are mad. That was like stepping into a wood chipper." with his friends responding "We told you man, just stay out of threads like that. When one of those gets going, they are out for blood and you're next on the menu with your gold colored name. They are like sharks. Best to let them burn themselves out."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-11-2012, 01:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynShaufer
Okay, I just needed to post this because I felt sort of bad for all the direct attacks on Tumerboy.

I can see him sitting there in his office, surrounded by several of his friends/coworkers looking at the computer screen showing this very thread. At the beginning Tumerboy saying "Seriously guys, I think I should post in this thread and see if I can smooth over some ruffled feathers." And his friends/coworkers all shaking their heads with the collective "Don't do it man, they will tear you apart, chew you up and spit you out."

Then after two attempts at it he's sitting there with those same friends/coworkers saying "Wow, they are mad. That was like stepping into a wood chipper." with his friends responding "We told you man, just stay out of threads like that. When one of those gets going, they are out for blood and you're next on the menu with your gold colored name. They are like sharks. Best to let them burn themselves out."
The problem my dear is that eventually we do burn out, and they get off doing what they are doing. At the end of the day the only way to make a business realize you dislike their practices, services or products... is to fire them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-11-2012, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprint01
The problem my dear is that eventually we do burn out, and they get off doing what they are doing. At the end of the day the only way to make a business realize you dislike their practices, services or products... is to fire them.
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to lighten the mood a little so it's not all buzz saws and claws.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
01-11-2012, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynShaufer
Oh, I agree. I just wanted to lighten the mood a little so it's not all buzz saws and claws.
Yeah I didn't set out to get all crazy-claws, my bad. It's just that there are some things about this here trek game that are so far off base that I sometimes outlay a lot of passion about it.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:19 PM.