Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
01-25-2012, 04:07 AM
After another night, i feel exactly as i thought. Maco is lil problem. Borg set is a problem. Maco plus 3x borg set IS THE PROBLEM. Maco alone can be nasty, but with borg set is completely out of balance.

They should do something.

Peace^^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 112
01-25-2012, 05:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashvitto
After another night, i feel exactly as i thought. Maco is lil problem. Borg set is a problem. Maco plus 3x borg set IS THE PROBLEM. Maco alone can be nasty, but with borg set is completely out of balance.

They should do something.

Peace^^
they tried nerfing it, but ended up giving it a buff...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
01-25-2012, 05:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thumappp
they tried nerfing it, but ended up giving it a buff...
I thought they nerfed the HG shield and buffed the MACO shield? Too much so it seems.
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# 114
01-25-2012, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I thought they nerfed the HG shield and buffed the MACO shield? Too much so it seems.
borg set got a nerf, then they thought they nerfde itt too much and ended up buffing it...

only procs when ur on low health, wich is when you need it anyways.
Lt. Commander
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# 115
01-25-2012, 05:38 AM
What they should do is set the Borg regen proc to be part of the 4 piece bonus instead of 3 pieces.

The MACO by its self isn't bad, it makes my escort nicely tough but not over the top, but with that Borg set it's just crazy, and even though I do like the 'immortal escort' idea it's just as much of a pain as it is a benefit.


@Koopa27 On my Raptor I have the KHG Mk11 shields with 3 Borg pieces (I was curious too), it's good, and in my opinion it comes close to the MACO/Borg but isn't quite there, although there are some minor differences in how my Klink is specced compared to my Fed and what skills I use on each, so the comparison data isn't "pure" but it's close enough.
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# 116
01-25-2012, 08:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alkem View Post
What they should do is set the Borg regen proc to be part of the 4 piece bonus instead of 3 pieces.

The MACO by its self isn't bad, it makes my escort nicely tough but not over the top, but with that Borg set it's just crazy, and even though I do like the 'immortal escort' idea it's just as much of a pain as it is a benefit.


@Koopa27 On my Raptor I have the KHG Mk11 shields with 3 Borg pieces (I was curious too), it's good, and in my opinion it comes close to the MACO/Borg but isn't quite there, although there are some minor differences in how my Klink is specced compared to my Fed and what skills I use on each, so the comparison data isn't "pure" but it's close enough.
Totally agree. My mv is pretty nice with all maco but nothing special. Maco set has nothing impressive , just a very good shield...the 2 buffs are pretty useless, specially 3rd. But with 3 borg part, it's not Op, is ridicolous.

Peace ^^
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
01-25-2012, 08:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
75 % for both hull and shields. Ablative Armor is an exception to the rule. (90 % resistance? Or was it 95 %?)

And that doesn'T discount the possiblity that something broken in the way the caps are applied. (If they can willfully break it with AA, maybe they can accidentally break it with MAKO?)
Appreciate the information, my fleet set me straight last night on all the figures during testnig, as I had been struggling to find the specific values by DEVs on the Tribble forum (because they always seem to change) regarding resist bonuses, and the most recent changes were made during my hiatus from the game.

The reason the MACO shield is so good is starting to make sense with math now. Shield power was apparently adjusted (last year) to give bonuses up to 35% at 125 shield power, and resists cap at 75%(!), which is crazy high because MACO is basically a high cap absorption shield with high regeneration and resist modifiers. MACO is basically the best of everything passive in STO space defense in one piece.

Assume you are running a base of 50 shield power on your Defiant, and keep in mind that basically - every 2 additional power over 50 shield power is an extra 1% resist.

The math works out.

For every 1 time you trigger Power Conduit Link, you are getting an extra 1% in shield resists. If you are under focused fire from multiple targets, Power Conduit Link will usually be active at least 3 times, I usually note the number is closer to 5 on my Defiant with MK XI MACO when I have 3 or more Klingons on me - which comes in at about 5% additional shield resist, but Power Conduit Link also has additional bonuses that come from the additional power - the +10 power to engines increases base defense of the ship, and +10 power to AUX increases the power of TSS/HE/etc BOFF abilities).

If you factor the 5% absorbtion, ~5% shield resist from Power Conduit Link, and 10% base bonus the shield is actually about 20% resist by itself during battle, and that is before you see typical builds running EPtS I (which after diminishing returns is at least an extra 10% resist) and TSS I (which can also add about 10% resist after diminishing returns). 2 Skills and 1 piece of equipment has given a ship 40% resist, and the additional engine power has reduced your ships base defense. Wowza!

Now start adding in resist bonuses from armor/alloy, APD, your base character skill, and any number of other bonuses to resists or base defense (accolades, other items, etc) and I find my MACO MK XI Defiant running about 50% resists as a baseline, with peaks up to 70-75% when using certain other skills. The base defense value is also critical in calculations, because it reduces the degree to which you take a critical hit. That is why some Tac/Escorts are better off in AEGIS/MACO than BORG/MACO, which Silverwings discussed in STOked episode 109.

With MACO an Escort can avoid the uber crit, run resist close to 50% at base and spike up to 75% resist easily, all while giving up nothing on offense - and most of these bonuses are passive or part of typical defense on an escort. Because the high resist bonuses happen in conditions of the most common defense skills used on Defiant by the vast majority of Fed players, and when that extra 20% from the shield is piled on the previous defensive spec of most Defiant's - the difference in game is very noticeable. It also helps that the shield cap is very high because it provides more time for redistribution of shields from different shield facets, and it can get frustrating for opponents when the Borg set regenerates the high cap shield full.

It actually gets worse, because MACO also provides as additional 10% to plasma damage, which makes Warp Plasma ineffective, and APO is often used by escorts flown by Science or Engineer captains, which gets escorts out of the plasma. The only reason to take HE on an Escort right now is for a small hull heal, because in the big picture those who are using Polarize Hull are able to cap 75% resist across the board - meaning even if you take a full blown spike of major crit nasty 60,000 damage ALPHA strike - historically enough spike to blow an Escort away in one pass - now you are only really doing between 15-30K, and when the player is redistributing with high cap shields, most of that damage is going directly to shields. Of that 15-30K, 5% is being absorbed (750-1500), and only 5% is bleeding through (750-1500). That means even with this massive 60K ALPHA strike, bleedthrough hull damage to a 33K hull escort is only between 2-4% hull damage if redistribution allows the player to absorb/distribute the damage to 2 shield facings. To a single shield facing (being redictributed with Tactical Team/Manually) the damage to hull might get up to about 33-50%, meaning 7.5-15K hull damage - tops - which would still leave the Escort with over 50% hull before a hull heal.

I'm using the example of a 60K ALPHA strike, which is basically a perfect condition 3km super buff attack with few misses and high crits. That is not typical, 20K ALPHA is more typical, which is why when you do an ALPHA strike against some Defiants you find you've basically done 1% hull damage and around 3K damage to shields - and the shield regen rate for MK XI MACO can be over 1000 every six seconds without buffs.

Basically MACO shield has made it so an Escort can take a nasty ALPHA strike of 60K damage, and walk away with around 60% shields and 98% hull before using a heal. Because that ALPHA strike typically comes when EPtS I or even TSS I is already healing over time (often both), it is more common to see the shield at around 75% or higher and hull at 98% after a major alpha strike. High regeneration means the Escort can be back to full shields by the time the opponents cooldown allows them to start their next ALPHA strike (pass shield regen alone on MACO MK XI is about 5000 total shields over 30 seconds) - and it's a safe bet the second ALPHA strike won't be under ideal conditions.

I dunno how they will be nerf MACO shield, but I expect it will happen. Cryptic can't ignore just how powerful the shield is relative to every other piece of equipment in the game. The MACO shield is passively more powerful than the active capabilities of just about every other SET piece in the game, and by itself the MACO shield basically makes the entire OMEGA space set worthless.

Personally, I think they should reduce/remove the 10% resist to all damage bonus or reduce the cap of the shields by either 1000-2000 per facing, but keep Power Conduit Link and be careful not to try to nerf both resist and cap too bad - because the effects will compound quickly. The 10% resist of a 60K ALPHA strike is an additional 6K damage that can be distributed between 2 shield facings (if the player is any good), but can also be focused all on one facing creating major damage to hull with Torp crits. The removal of 2000 per facing is 8000 total shields - alot, which in the above scenario even with 10% resist would be a crippling blow to hull through a single facet but not enough to blow the Escort up in one pass without major crit luck. The key to lowering the shield cap is to understand the biggest impact would be to ALPHA strikes, because it reduces the amount of shields that can be redistributed to absorb a hit. For damage over time, the cap reduction won't significantly impact MACO, but damage over time isn't PvP - that's PvE, meaning a cap reduction will impact PvP more than PvE - except against the Borg. Borg in Elite STFs typically hit very hard, meaning the lower cap will make Elite STFs much harder to do - so in the end I believe the resist bonuses is likely where the nerf will come. IMO, Power Conduit Link is what makes the MACO shield unique and desirable, even with lower resists or Cap.

A lot with MACO to think about, but 5% absorption + 10% damage resist + average of additional 5% shield power resist bonus with Power Conduit Link gives the typical Escort with MACO 20% passive resist in PvP while delivering the least amount of damage bleedthrough to ship hull possible in the game. It would be one thing if the resists were active bonuses that players had to actively utilize by the player, but as passive bonuses the piece makes it too easy to be OP - even for newbs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
01-25-2012, 08:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
I thought they nerfed the HG shield and buffed the MACO shield? Too much so it seems.
The HG shield was buffed. It got more HP, and lost +10 defense in exchange for placate proc and -25% accuracy for 10 sec proc. This means if the attacker gets placated and switch targets they still have the -25% accuracy at w/e the attacker is now firing at.

Imo, people who aren't making it work well are just tossing a tac team on themselve w/a basic hp heal w/o boosting the shield resistence which makes the shields last much longer. EPtS and Shield batteries are a must in case your shield subsystem is targeted or you run w/low shield power levels.

The two set is very good for Sci BoPs as it boosts Aux, Torp Kinetic damage (including bio-neural) and leaves open an optional deflector to boost w/e sci you'd like boosted. Scis have strong enough options for defense, they shouldn't need Borg Procs to survive.
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Posts: 120
# 119
01-25-2012, 08:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darksided View Post

The math works out.


If you factor the 5% absorbtion, ~5% shield resist from Power Conduit Link, and 10% base bonus the shield is actually about 20% resist by itself during battle, and that is before you see typical builds running EPtS I (which after diminishing returns is at least an extra 10% resist) and TSS I (which can also add about 10% resist after diminishing returns). 2 Skills and 1 piece of equipment has given a ship 40% resist, and the additional engine power has reduced your ships base defense. Wowza!

Now start adding in resist bonuses from armor/alloy, APD, your base character skill, and any number of other bonuses to resists or base defense (accolades, other items, etc) and I find my MACO MK XI Defiant running about 50% resists as a baseline, with peaks up to 70-75% when using certain other skills. The base defense value is also critical in calculations, because it reduces the degree to which you take a critical hit. That is why some Tac/Escorts are better off in AEGIS/MACO than BORG/MACO, which Silverwings discussed in STOked episode 109.

A lot with MACO to think about, but 5% absorption + 10% damage resist + average of additional 5% shield power resist bonus with Power Conduit Link gives the typical Escort with MACO 20% passive resist in PvP while delivering the least amount of damage bleedthrough to ship hull possible in the game. It would be one thing if the resists were active bonuses that players had to actively utilize by the player, but as passive bonuses the piece makes it too easy to be OP - even for newbs.
No the math does not work out. I get 75% shield resists with my MACO Mk XI shield when I am sitting still at 71 shield power without EPTS or TSS going. I did the math. You are getting much more than 10% shield resists that it states you get. (see here for the math: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=250120)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
01-25-2012, 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beary666 View Post
No the math does not work out. I get 75% shield resists with my MACO Mk XI shield when I am sitting still at 71 shield power without EPTS or TSS going. I did the math. You are getting much more than 10% shield resists that it states you get. (see here for the math: http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...d.php?t=250120)
The math would work out the same either way, and the set could very easily be bugged, because under test conditions we have both found that the ~75% resist cap is almost always being reached in space combat right now - even when your opponent is buffed solid for max damage under normal combat conditions or in a standing test that you conducted.

Your findings and mine basically tell the same story - the MACO shield provides a consistent 75% damage resist for the shields on the ship that is using MACO, but under certain combat conditions the resists can be dropped to about 50%.

If there is a bug, that would be noteworthy, but even without a bug, under normal fighting conditions with buffs 75% resists is pretty common for a decent spec'd character and ship using MACO. That ~20% passive damage resist bonus to all types (and 30% for Borg) before other Power Conduit Link bonuses is a pretty big deal.

PS. Use a real weapon for testing next time. I did that damn New Link mission 10 times and have tried several combinations of Polarized Tetryon beams on my Star Cruiser. Those weapons are bugged, and not useful for anything. The proc does not work, and I wouldn't be surprised if those weapons are bugged in more ways than one.
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