Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
01-19-2012, 01:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
This isn't about a better tier of equipment, this is comparing mk XI purples to mk XI set items (or mk x to mk x, whatever). Someone posted the comparisons between the STF sets on the last page, so look at some other set shields and compare them to purple counterparts.

Breen mk XI resilient shields:
5845 capacity
169 regeneration
20% polaron resist

Purple mk XI [AP][CAP]x2 resilient shields:
6099 capacity
169 regeneration
20% antiproton resist

Clearly the Breen set shields are actually underpowered, they have bascially CAPx1.5 because CAPx1 shields are even lower capacity than the Breen shields.

Aegis covarient shields:
6930 capacity
131 regeneration
+7.6 shield performance (totally worthless modifer)
+7.6 shield system (why not just give it another cap modifier?)

Blue mk X Covarient CAPx2 shields
6897 capacity
131 regeneration

Aegis shields are basically CAPx2.5 or so, though the shield system buff makes them basically capx3. The shield performance modifer is totally useless because no BOFF powers use it and it isn't enough to increase shield power by 1 point.

Compare that with the comparisons on the last page (or go to DS9 and look for yourself) and it is obvious the MACO and KHG shields are clearly too powerful compared to other shields. They not only get the hidden standard modifiers that put them above other shields, they get additional special procs.
I think you're idea of "tier" is slightly askew form what my idea is. These new sets are more difficult to get and are, in my opinion, higher tier than those. Just because they are the same Mk XI does not mean that they should always have the same cap to their stats. Those items you posted can be attained through solo play while the ones being complained about require team play and a lot more effort on the part of the player. Would it make you happy if they just replaced the text on the Honor Guard / Omega / MACO sets so that they said Mk IV?

If you are going to tell me that grinding out 120 chips with a team is going to yield the same results as someone who is doing solo play on easy mode then I dare say what would be the point of grinding out all those chips? You gotta understand that nobody would run STF's if the items were not the best in the game. Are they OP? No. They are slightly more powerful. However I consider all 3 STF sets equal as they perform well for their designed roles.

I guess the only major issue would be that the borg set is so darn cheap to get. Something like 20 chips per item would seem more fitting for how good they are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
01-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickhowdy View Post
I think you're idea of "tier" is slightly askew form what my idea is. These new sets are more difficult to get and are, in my opinion, higher tier than those. Just because they are the same Mk XI does not mean that they should always have the same cap to their stats. Those items you posted can be attained through solo play while the ones being complained about require team play and a lot more effort on the part of the player. Would it make you happy if they just replaced the text on the Honor Guard / Omega / MACO sets so that they said Mk IV?

If you are going to tell me that grinding out 120 chips with a team is going to yield the same results as someone who is doing solo play on easy mode then I dare say what would be the point of grinding out all those chips? You gotta understand that nobody would run STF's if the items were not the best in the game. Are they OP? No. They are slightly more powerful. However I consider all 3 STF sets equal as they perform well for their designed roles.

I guess the only major issue would be that the borg set is so darn cheap to get. Something like 20 chips per item would seem more fitting for how good they are.
Why is grinding anything a good thing? If no one likes to do it why have it in the game at all? Are you saying the most time spent doing the least fun activity the better the item should be? This seems to be odd reasoning imo.

Arguing effort is one thing, arguing effort while having to endore the same boring maps which are all designed w/the same format (x heals y which heals z which you need to destroy) is a bit sadistic/masochistic to me. If people aren't running STFs b/c they're fun to run for the sake of running them, it's a STF design problem and should have nothing to do w/rewards. I don't get why people think it's a badge of honor to spend their entertainment time doing something they don't like to do and further believe they should be rewarded for doing so, and then drag everyone else into it just to acquire a grossly unbalanced item which the shields are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
01-19-2012, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by matteo716 View Post
resilient have a native 5%absorb and 5% bleed through where normal shields only have 10% bleed through. so it may be my mistake in thinking your shields take only half damage. i appologize, but thats still 5% less damage they will be taking nativly then any other shield and on top of the new one has 10% all resist. so yeah. my math was way off but the problem is still there that resisilent shields with a higher cap then covariant is bad for business.

with how easy it is to keep one's shield up its not insane for me to keep saying "half damage". you cant use the argument that "if your shields down you still take full damage" when thats not the issue, the issue is that this new shield is simply too good for absolutly no loss on anything.

higher cap, higher regen. great extras all around. and its all by itself. throw on the borg gear with free heals, add in your own shield heals and you're golden.
Thank you for clearing up your statement. I've already posted how the Honor Guard shield causes players to drop target which results in dps loss which is the klingon version of 10% shield resist. The Honor Guard shield has more cap than MACO but also -25% accuracy to players shooting at them. To me they even out quite nicely between each other. I've already posted why I consider the STF gear more important and worthy of having more stats than similar Mk gear. They are harder to get!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
01-19-2012, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamid
Why is grinding anything a good thing? If no one likes to do it why have it in the game at all? Are you saying the most time spent doing the least fun activity the better the item should be? This seems to be odd reasoning imo.

Arguing effort is one thing, arguing effort while having to endore the same boring maps which are all designed w/the same format (x heals y which heals z which you need to destroy) is a bit sadistic/masochistic to me. If people aren't running STFs b/c they're fun to run for the sake of running them, it's a STF design problem and should have nothing to do w/rewards. I don't get why people think it's a badge of honor to spend their entertainment time doing something they don't like to do and further believe they should be rewarded for doing so, and then drag everyone else into it just to acquire a grossly unbalanced item which the shields are.
I agree with you that the design of the maps is pretty blah at this point. The basic design of rewarding players for putting in the time is just basic when it comes to MMORPG's. The fact that you do not consider the time investment fun is not the gears fault but the designers. I do not consider it a badge of honor that I got through the STF's. Nobody here bragged that they are more skilled because they have better equipment so please do not take it that way.

Some people in this game have a difficult time understanding that new and more powerful items must be released in order for players to make progress with their characters. I know you would love to just have the same items until the end of time without any improvements but the vast majority of players do enjoy collecting items and make them stronger. If you are using the exact same items for a year straight with no hope of new stuff coming out then why play for more than a few months?

This is exactly why Cryptic lost so many subscriptions when the game launched, no content. People didn't love the game just because they could go pew pew on astroids. They saw the lack of content on Fed side and the fact that there was NO content on KDF side. If you do not have new content coming out you cannot keep an audience of any size. There is no way I'm doing new content more than once if there's no incentive to doing it. What would be the point really? It's something to do. They give us a reward for doing it alot. I get that the basic design of the maps is pretty thin and gets boring fast but at least they are trying to work with a model that is the standard for MMORPG's.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
01-19-2012, 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickhowdy View Post
I think you're idea of "tier" is slightly askew form what my idea is. These new sets are more difficult to get and are, in my opinion, higher tier than those. Just because they are the same Mk XI does not mean that they should always have the same cap to their stats. Those items you posted can be attained through solo play while the ones being complained about require team play and a lot more effort on the part of the player.

Harder? You are surely joking. There is nothing difficult about doing normal STFs. It is a grind, plain and simple. All you need to do is put effort into it and you will get the sets, shields included, in a matter of time.



Quote:
Would it make you happy if they just replaced the text on the Honor Guard / Omega / MACO sets so that they said Mk IV?
That is just absurd.


Quote:
If you are going to tell me that grinding out 120 chips with a team is going to yield the same results as someone who is doing solo play on easy mode then I dare say what would be the point of grinding out all those chips? You gotta understand that nobody would run STF's if the items were not the best in the game. Are they OP? No. They are slightly more powerful. However I consider all 3 STF sets equal as they perform well for their designed roles.

120? Since when does it take 120 chips to get the shields? No it takes 40 for mk XI, and 20 for mk X, if you aren't one of the lucky people who gets a tech drop and get it with no chips. No, the shields are very overpowered, taking into account the effort to get them, taking into account the grind to get them. They should not be better than everything else because it means there is zero reason to ever use anything less.

Go look at the difference between mk X and mk XI. Seriously, what is that extra 20 EDCs getting you?

On a science ship, the extra 20 EDCs gets me 9250/220 vs 9034/215 capacity/regen. That is what 20 EDCs and is worth, 216 capacity and 5 regen.

20 EDCs can be gotten in 7 hours of play, easily, doing the 3 space STFs each hour. 2-4 days at most. It takes 3 days to refine the dilithium for AEGIS shields, so what is harder to get?

Quote:
I guess the only major issue would be that the borg set is so darn cheap to get. Something like 20 chips per item would seem more fitting for how good they are.
The Borg shields are pretty well insignificant compared to MACO shields. I wouldn't spend 20 EDC on a Borg shield when I could spend 20 EDC on a mk X MACO shield. Now if the other sets' parts were brought in line and weren't so ridiculously OP then you might have a point, but the fact remains the new set pieces are blatantly overpowered.

No it isn't just the shields, all the set pieces are OP, but the shields, especially the MACO shields, are definitely OP.



Quote:
Breen shield has 30% polaron resists, unless something changed?
Yes, they were nerfed in the set update, apparently to make polarons more viable or something, but comparing the Breen set to the STF sets, who would use the Breen set?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
01-19-2012, 03:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickhowdy View Post
I agree with you that the design of the maps is pretty blah at this point. The basic design of rewarding players for putting in the time is just basic when it comes to MMORPG's. The fact that you do not consider the time investment fun is not the gears fault but the designers. I do not consider it a badge of honor that I got through the STF's. Nobody here bragged that they are more skilled because they have better equipment so please do not take it that way.

Some people in this game have a difficult time understanding that new and more powerful items must be released in order for players to make progress with their characters. I know you would love to just have the same items until the end of time without any improvements but the vast majority of players do enjoy collecting items and make them stronger. If you are using the exact same items for a year straight with no hope of new stuff coming out then why play for more than a few months?

This is exactly why Cryptic lost so many subscriptions when the game launched, no content. People didn't love the game just because they could go pew pew on astroids. They saw the lack of content on Fed side and the fact that there was NO content on KDF side. If you do not have new content coming out you cannot keep an audience of any size. There is no way I'm doing new content more than once if there's no incentive to doing it. What would be the point really? It's something to do. They give us a reward for doing it alot. I get that the basic design of the maps is pretty thin and gets boring fast but at least they are trying to work with a model that is the standard for MMORPG's.
"Rewarding" players for playing the same crap over and over in games predates MMOs, but this still doesn't mean it's a good thing. The fact it exists and has existed for a while has no bearing if it's a good model or not. In fact it's a bad thing to distract from the lack of something interesting to do and overly common in crappy games. You've argued in a circular logical fashion the grind justifies the gear quality which justifies putting up w/the grind. I'm saying the grind has nothing to do w/the gear qualitiy from a consumer perspective. Further, unless someone likes running STFs it's foolish to encourage the crappy content by demanding/expecting better gear. This is entertainment not a job.

Also, new things don't need to be better things For example, a team bonus set (KHG) is new (to STO) and doesn't need to be OP in fact it's bad in its current form to the point of being useless. But, the idea of team bonus set is new (for STO) and good. If done well it would add a new choice to be made w/a new set of combinations and playstyles while not taking away from other options.

On the other hand can you name one situation where a player would choose not to use a STF shield if they had access to it?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
01-19-2012, 05:09 PM
gonna wait till all the nerfs/changes on the sets settle before spending hard grinded stuff.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
01-19-2012, 08:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxrocks
Harder? You are surely joking. There is nothing difficult about doing normal STFs. It is a grind, plain and simple. All you need to do is put effort into it and you will get the sets, shields included, in a matter of time.





That is just absurd.





120? Since when does it take 120 chips to get the shields? No it takes 40 for mk XI, and 20 for mk X, if you aren't one of the lucky people who gets a tech drop and get it with no chips. No, the shields are very overpowered, taking into account the effort to get them, taking into account the grind to get them. They should not be better than everything else because it means there is zero reason to ever use anything less.

Go look at the difference between mk X and mk XI. Seriously, what is that extra 20 EDCs getting you?

On a science ship, the extra 20 EDCs gets me 9250/220 vs 9034/215 capacity/regen. That is what 20 EDCs and is worth, 216 capacity and 5 regen.

20 EDCs can be gotten in 7 hours of play, easily, doing the 3 space STFs each hour. 2-4 days at most. It takes 3 days to refine the dilithium for AEGIS shields, so what is harder to get?



The Borg shields are pretty well insignificant compared to MACO shields. I wouldn't spend 20 EDC on a Borg shield when I could spend 20 EDC on a mk X MACO shield. Now if the other sets' parts were brought in line and weren't so ridiculously OP then you might have a point, but the fact remains the new set pieces are blatantly overpowered.

No it isn't just the shields, all the set pieces are OP, but the shields, especially the MACO shields, are definitely OP.





Yes, they were nerfed in the set update, apparently to make polarons more viable or something, but comparing the Breen set to the STF sets, who would use the Breen set?
To begin, I never said "harder" just that it's more difficult. You hit the nail on the head with the time investment. That's the difficult part, time. Yes, you need fewer chips for the Mk X version of the set but I'm talking about the Mk XI set peices. You say it's only the shield that matters when it really isn't. It's the whole set that matters when considering the price and time investment to get the entire set. It's not a useless set like so many believe, mark my words people will be using 3pc MACO / Omega / HG in the near future.

As for the reason I referred to the Mk XI instead of the Mk X is because it's quite literally the highest possible piece you can get without luck of the draw. I'll agree that the Mk X version should be far weaker in strength and possibly a bit more comparable to Breen or Aegis pieces, though I simply figured you were comparing last sets to the new sets strongest version possible ( sans luck ).

As for the borg shields at 20 EDC's I agree, they should be far cheaper for how good they are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
01-21-2012, 08:40 PM
FvK is hilarious now. Maco shelds have resistance even against theta vent. And if u spec power insulators yur good to go. Put some Aegis engines with additional 5% defense
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
01-21-2012, 08:50 PM
My Eng/RSV with 3/4 Borg + MACO Mk X is a God now.

The funny thing is, Plasmas were a joke before. Now they're even more of a joke since everyone and their mother is going to run MACO, which has an innate 30% Plasma resist (20% Plasma resist + 10% all energy).

I just don't understand why MACO has like 6 modifiers on it... 4 Cap, 1 Pla resist, 1 All Energy resist, and 1 awesome proc to boot. If anything, that +Energy buff should be part of the 2 or even 3 piece set bonus. Everything that's not a set piece is horribly underpowered now, and even then, all of the other sets (Omega, Borg, Breen, Aegis) can't compare to the MACO shield. KHG is also in a field of it's own; that 1 second Placate breaks Tractor/Tachyon Beams and Sensor Analysis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IvanTom View Post
FvK is hilarious now. Maco shelds have resistance even against theta vent. And if u spec power insulators yur good to go. Put some Aegis engines with additional 5% defense
Even with 9/9 in Power Insulators, those Siphon Drones can sap you dry in seconds. And with the current "spam the f*&k out of the Feds so they can't do anything" tactics Klings are using, even TBR and FAW isn't enough to cope with them (pug v pug, of course. I'm sure premade environments are different).
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