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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 131
02-13-2012, 12:46 PM
heres something to remember about the defiant and akira. all the akira's power generating reactors, its warp core, 4 impulse reactors and any other auxiliary generates proboly exceed the volume of the entire defiant. the same can be said about all its torpedo launchers, or it'd deuterium tank proboly, the akira is 22 times larger then the defiant.

the defiant is powerful though, i figure a prolonged burst from its cannons could be about as powerful as a large array blast from a GCS. the galaxy could fire those full power shots all day though, the defiant's gun barrels would deform or explode trying to match that rate of fire. it needs cannons because theres no room on it for large arrays. cannons are its only option, its maneuverable enough to use them though so its a good fit.

larger ships, even an excelsior can shrug off fire from weapons that strong for a wile, shields can be quite impressive. larger ships will still have significantly more durability then smaller ships, ablative armor or not. they significantly more power generation for shields, and a much higher damage soak ability due to size alone. even if large ship hull is pierced more easily, they have more of it, and more critical systems are buried deeper in the ship. every hull breach on a ship as small as a defiant is going to destroy something critical, it needs absurd armor because 1 good hit would take it out of the game.

bigger is absolutely better, that law dose not apply to thing originally built to be as large as they are, you dont see air craft carriers collapsing in on themselves do you? the defient is cheep (compared to any full size ship), small and powerful, with the highest firepower per weight of any starfleet ship by far, but its not going to beat or outlast larger general purpose cruisers 1 on 1, especially those that also have a tactical bent.

as far as the lakota fight goes, the defiant was fighting a lot harder then the lakota. the lakota never fired a single torpedo, photon or otherwise, wile the defiant was hitting it as hard as it could with its cannons, aft beam banks and photon torpedoes. the lakota's beam banks were relatively weak weapons on a ship that large, it had no arrays warped around its saucer, the class never did received a proper upgrade with these. it was left with banks that proboly had some very large emitters, though they would still pale in comparison to an array with 50 or so small emitters. its modern torpedo ammo would be its most powerful weapon by far, and it never used them.

they both eased up near the end when both were critically damaged, both debating weather or not to start firing quantums. if the lakota opened up with a full spread of torpedo's along with phasers at the very beginning that fight proboly would have been quite short. if the defiant survived that first attack it would have no choice but to fire quantums and cannons, the lakota then firing quantums as well, and the defiant would be destroyed wile they were still facing each other, no flying past each other or maneuvering would occur. cooler heads prevented a full exchange like this though, but the defiant did have to shoot a lot harder to prevent its self from being disproportionately more damaged, the result being they were both at about the same damage level, the lakota a bit more damaged maybe.

this is an excellent illustration of were a tiny ship armed to the teeth stands compared to larger general purpose ships, im glad we have this frame of reference otherwise the defiant fanboyism would be hard to legitimately challenge. it would just be more powerful then would make logical sense and there would be no real way to disprove it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 132
02-13-2012, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
You give the term of "powerful", I don't recall anyone ever calling the Defiant that so I'm not sure what your point is in the regard.
In addition we've seen numerous examples where in RL, at a similar technological level, bigger ships are more powerful than smaller ones.
The drastic difference in performance between a battleship and a destroyer comes to mind.
In case of the Akira relative to the Defiant the size factor is 3055000 vs 355000 which is 8.6 to 1.
I was using powerful as a 'catch -all' because I can't remember the exact phrase. I think it was 'one of the most heavily armed'

In RL we don't have anything like shield bubbles or structural integrity fields to worry about. if its 8.6 times the size the shield bubble requires 73.96 times the power and Structural Integrity 636.056 times. That's an enormous power difference for the same affect. Does the akira reactor produce 636 times the output of the Defiant? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't have the specs)



Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
heres something to remember about the defiant and akira. all the akira's power generating reactors, its warp core, 4 impulse reactors and any other auxiliary generates proboly exceed the volume of the entire defiant. the same can be said about all its torpedo launchers, or it'd deuterium tank proboly, the akira is 22 times larger then the defiant.
Is it 8.6 larger or 22? is 22 the volume?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
bigger is absolutely better, that law dose not apply to thing originally built to be as large as they are, you dont see air craft carriers collapsing in on themselves do you?.
Then why aren't we building aircraft carriers ten times the size we are? or a hundred? A carrier is the size it is because that's the size it needs to be to perform it's function.
The trouble here is you're starting from the perspective that the Akira and other similar sized ships are the ideal size, and thus obviously the Defiant can't measure up. But if, as I'm suggesting, those large ships are simply too big for dedicated combat then it's a different story. Now I don't know how much power each individual system/technology uses, it could be that my guesses are way off. But if they're not, then larger ships will be using a significant proportion of their greater power output just running day to day systems, because the power requirements scale exponentially.
It would also explain why the more combat-orientated Sovereign is smaller than the Galaxy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
as far as the lakota fight goes, the defiant was fighting a lot harder then the lakota.
I would suggest that any fight in which the Defiant is not actively trying to destroy the other ship is not one in which the Defiant is fighting hard. Way of the Warrior makes it perfectly clear the difference that firing to disable rather than firing to destroy makes.

When firing to disable they made no gains, when they switched it ended the fight.
There's a reason you can't target subsystems with cannon in this game
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 133
02-13-2012, 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
In RL we don't have anything like shield bubbles or structural integrity fields to worry about. if its 8.6 times the size the shield bubble requires 73.96 times the power and Structural Integrity 636.056. That's an enormous power difference for the same affect. Does the akira reactor produce 636 times the output of the Defiant? (I'm genuinely asking, I don't have the specs)
shields arent necessarily big energy drainers wile they are active, they are more reactive. when something contacts them the shield generate amplify the power to the area being hit. this creates strain on the emitter and if it has to work too hard they weaken and even go off line. a bigger ship would just have more shield generates, and would use the same amount of energy to block the same kind of attacks a smaller ship would. the description of how this works i s in the tng tech manual iirc, this description is the conclusion i reached for how they actually work. it just gave a technical description that only someone in universe would fully understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
Is it 8.6 larger or 22? is 22 the volume?
yes volume. the akira is 1,407,821m, the defiant is 61,724m

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
Then why aren't we building aircraft carriers ten times the size we are? or a hundred? A carrier is the size it is because that's the size it needs to be to perform it's function.
The trouble hear is you're starting from the perspective that the Akira and other similar sized ships are the ideal size, and thus obviously the Defiant can't measure up. But if, as I'm suggesting, those large ships are simply too big for dedicated combat then it's a different story. Now I don't know how much power each individual system/technology uses, it could be that my guesses are way off. But if they're not, then larger ships will be using a significant proportion of their greater power output just running day to day systems, because the power requirements scale exponentially.
It would also explain why the more combat-orientated Sovereign is smaller than the Galaxy.
no they are their ideal size, and every size of ship serves its purpose. wile serving its purpose, the defiant just happens to not outgun large ships. not because its bad at what it does, its just in a lower weight class. if all of starfleets ships weren't general purpose science/exploration/combat ships then they would proboly be smaller or much more heavily armed. as always, larger ships contain larger cores and fusion reactors, its all relative.

also, the galaxy almost certainly has a higher number of m devoted to weapons and defensive systems then the sovereign does, the galaxy is 2.4 times larger after all. the sovereign likely has a higher weapon/defensive system to total m ratio though, making it more of a battle cruiser


Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
I would suggest that any fight in which the Defiant is not actively trying to destroy the other ship is not one in which the Defiant is fighting hard. Way of the Warrior makes it perfectly clear the difference that firing to disable rather than firing to destroy makes.

When firing to disable they made no gains, when they switched it ended the fight.
There's a reason you can't target subsystems with cannon in this game
when the lakota's shields were intact the defient was fireing wildly at it. once its shields failed though they didn't decide to target the bridge or anything, that's the restrain, that's when they were firing carefully to disable. its perfectly clear in way of the warrior that some of the opening shots at the bops sent 1 of them tumbling out of control, that looked quite effective. its just that the defiant was out numbered and out gunned and they had to fight for real to get out alive. that's why worf was all like ya we really need to kill them before they kill us, in pc starfleet officer language.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 134
02-13-2012, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
shields arent necessarily big energy drainers wile they are active, they are more reactive. when something contacts them the shield generate amplify the power to the area being hit. this creates strain on the emitter and if it has to work too hard they weaken and even go off line. a bigger ship would just have more shield generates, and would use the same amount of energy to block the same kind of attacks a smaller ship would. the description of how this works i s in the tng tech manual iirc, this description is the conclusion i reached for how they actually work. it just gave a technical description that only someone in universe would fully understand.
I suppose that's as good an explanation as any, and it matches what we see on screen so that's the main thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
also, the galaxy almost certainly has a higher number of m devoted to weapons and defensive systems then the sovereign does, the galaxy is 2.4 times larger after all. the sovereign likely has a higher weapon/defensive system to total m ratio though, making it more of a battle cruiser
I'm sure the galaxy has more weapons (it certainly has longer strips), I just don't see how it can devote as much power to them as the Sovereign does without a far, far larger reactor (which it doesn't appear to have. Again, going off the screen. I'm afraid I don't have the specs)

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
no they are their ideal size, and every size of ship serves its purpose. wile serving its purpose, the defiant just happens to not outgun large ships. not because its bad at what it does, its just in a lower weight class.
And this is where we reach our impasse, because with its greater maneuverability and show-breaking cannons I don't see the class divide.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 135
02-13-2012, 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
I suppose that's as good an explanation as any, and it matches what we see on screen so that's the main thing.
yep. otherwise shields would be almost unfeasible, or nearly useless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
I'm sure the galaxy has more weapons (it certainly has longer strips), I just don't see how it can devote as much power to them as the Sovereign does without a far, far larger reactor (which it doesn't appear to have. Again, going off the screen. I'm afraid I don't have the specs)
it basically just needs enough energy to charge each emitter, that energy then just does its thing. if the galaxy class is really underpowered the rate of fire for large blasts would be lower, the power of the blasts wouldn't change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_smith View Post
And this is where we reach our impasse, because with its greater maneuverability and show-breaking cannons I don't see the class divide.
really, the defiant only blew away fragile bops and bug ships easily. after probably the longest cannon burst we have seen it fire it took down a breen cruiser, a barrage of quantums disabled a keldorn, and an excelsior was able to absorb everything it could throw at it for a few minutes. it all is pretty consistent actually, fragile ships its size it chews up, bigger ships it has a lot more trouble destroying, and larger still ships can fend off its attack and match or overpower it.
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