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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-17-2012, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
you have every right to be confused about the tier order of escorts, they got just about all the ship ranking wrong. the defiant's size would classify it as a corvette, smaller then a frigate. its powerful for its size though, its got the firepower of a heavy destroyer, and its a match for an 80 year old light cruiser. its got nothing on a gunboat heavy cruiser like the akira though.

the akira has up to 15 small burst or single shot torpedo launchers, providing it with battleship levels of torpedo firepower, and its top phaser arrays is longer then its big brother the sovereigns top phaser array. by all rights it should outgun a sovereign, but the sovereign benefits from being 1.7 times larger and is at least more durable as a result. by 2409 their technology levels would be even with each other, but the sovereign has more room for general purpose equipment.

the escorts should have been tiered as such-
tier 2 saber
tier 3 defiant
tier 4 current fleet escort
tier 5 akira and Prometheus

that would have been closer to canon. the Prometheus is not even close to being as powerful as most people think it is, and shouldn't be top tier ether, but that's another discussion.
I absolutely agree.
I think that every ship should have some pros and cons.
Crew size and Ship size should have a much bigger impact than now. Each ship should be unique in its own way and not be pressed into (wrong) tiers.


Live long and prosper.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-21-2012, 05:15 PM
The Akira is not quite a cruiser or Escort. Also, I'm not seeing why it should be labeled as "far more powerful" then the defiant. The Defiant faced the Lakota with fully upgraded systems, and it dealt far more damage then it received. Likewise, if the bulk of the torpedo tubes are facing different directions, it's hard to send all that damage at a single target. We've seen them only using what, 2 forward in the shows and movies?

If anything, the Akira should be like the nebula and a mix of escort and cruiser.

In previous video games (like Armada) the Akira was not listed as the same type of ship as the Defiant. Besides, Armada has the whole RTS balancing thing like STO has the MMO tiering. Cause if we had all ships behave like they would in canon, there would be zero tiers and a Captain is just as lightly to be in a Miranda as a Galaxy.

Edit: Indeed, it seems the "15 torpedo launchers" was back when it was slotted to be a carrier. The Ds9 tech manual states it having two.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-21-2012, 05:43 PM
It's too much of a coincidence that the Galaxy/Intrepid/Defiant are Tier-4 ships when you're an honest-to-god captain.
It smacks of a CBS dictated mandate to match TNG/VOY/DS9.

If this speculation is true, there was never anything that could have been done about the Akira mis-match with the tier concept (and Tiers were *always* a bad concept).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-21-2012, 08:01 PM
They could make an Akira T5 in the future. I would love one. Always liked the look of the ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-21-2012, 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
you have every right to be confused about the tier order of escorts, they got just about all the ship ranking wrong. the defiant's size would classify it as a corvette, smaller then a frigate. its powerful for its size though, its got the firepower of a heavy destroyer, and its a match for an 80 year old light cruiser. its got nothing on a gunboat heavy cruiser like the akira though.

the akira has up to 15 small burst or single shot torpedo launchers, providing it with battleship levels of torpedo firepower, and its top phaser arrays is longer then its big brother the sovereigns top phaser array. by all rights it should outgun a sovereign, but the sovereign benefits from being 1.7 times larger and is at least more durable as a result. by 2409 their technology levels would be even with each other, but the sovereign has more room for general purpose equipment.

the escorts should have been tiered as such-
tier 2 saber
tier 3 defiant
tier 4 current fleet escort
tier 5 akira and Prometheus

that would have been closer to canon. the Prometheus is not even close to being as powerful as most people think it is, and shouldn't be top tier ether, but that's another discussion.

I'd have to disagree with you on most of what you said.

1. The Defiant is clearly an Escort, as stated by Sisko in "Defiant".

2. While the Akira had about 5 confirmed launchers (I'm only counting ones we saw fire on-screen), the Sovereign class had twice that many. 5 facing forward, and another 4-5 facing backward. And that's just torpdeos, not counting the full-coverage phaser arrays (compared to the Akira, which was only shown to have the one phaser strip on the saucer). There's no way the Akira comes close to "outgunning" the Sovereign.

3. The Prometheus was able to disable a Nebula class ship in a single pass, and destroy a Romulan Warbird while most of its systems were damaged. Not to mention, Starfleet sent an Akira and two Defiants to stop the Prometheus, and the Prometheus was able to withstand the attack from three warbirds on top of the Starfleet ships. And that was while it was on almost complete computer control. So don't tell me the Prometheus isn't more powerful than an Akira. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-21-2012, 11:34 PM
I have to agree about the Akira class being an escort. If you line an Akira and a Stargazer up side by side you'll see that the habitable areas are nearly the same size. And yet the Stargazer has a crew of 500 and the Akira has only 100. Either some size changes need to be made or a change to the tier system is in order.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-21-2012, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela

3. The Prometheus was able to disable a Nebula class ship in a single pass, and destroy a Romulan Warbird while most of its systems were damaged. Not to mention, Starfleet sent an Akira and two Defiants to stop the Prometheus, and the Prometheus was able to withstand the attack from three warbirds on top of the Starfleet ships. And that was while it was on almost complete computer control. So don't tell me the Prometheus isn't more powerful than an Akira. :p
While I'm not going to play the 'whose bigger' debate, I'll point out that comparing THAT situation is a little off. The Prom at the time was a very advanced prototype using all the most uptodate tech; while the Akira/Defiant would most defiently be not as up to date; and most definetly would not have any prototype tech in it. That being said, there's something to be said about making things more entertaining even if it doesn't make sense. A multi vessel fight tends to be more entertaining then a dueling match.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-22-2012, 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildblade85 View Post
The Akira is not quite a cruiser or Escort. Also, I'm not seeing why it should be labeled as "far more powerful" then the defiant. The Defiant faced the Lakota with fully upgraded systems, and it dealt far more damage then it received. Likewise, if the bulk of the torpedo tubes are facing different directions, it's hard to send all that damage at a single target. We've seen them only using what, 2 forward in the shows and movies?

If anything, the Akira should be like the nebula and a mix of escort and cruiser.

In previous video games (like Armada) the Akira was not listed as the same type of ship as the Defiant. Besides, Armada has the whole RTS balancing thing like STO has the MMO tiering. Cause if we had all ships behave like they would in canon, there would be zero tiers and a Captain is just as lightly to be in a Miranda as a Galaxy.

Edit: Indeed, it seems the "15 torpedo launchers" was back when it was slotted to be a carrier. The Ds9 tech manual states it having two.
beating an excelsior is not an accomplishment, even an uprated one. that battle was basically a little kid pushing grampa down the stairs lol. an excelsior is quite underguned and under space framed for a ship its size in the late 24th century. they never bothered installing proper phaser arrays on them, the most it looked like they did was pack a bunch of emitters where the old banks used to be to try to give it better firepower. a small ship armed to the teeth should be a match for a much larger, fragile, 80 year old workhorse. the akira is bigger, newer, and better in every way then an excelsior, thus the defiant being a match for an excelsior does not make it more powerful then an akira.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela
I'd have to disagree with you on most of what you said.

1. The Defiant is clearly an Escort, as stated by Sisko in "Defiant".

2. While the Akira had about 5 confirmed launchers (I'm only counting ones we saw fire on-screen), the Sovereign class had twice that many. 5 facing forward, and another 4-5 facing backward. And that's just torpdeos, not counting the full-coverage phaser arrays (compared to the Akira, which was only shown to have the one phaser strip on the saucer). There's no way the Akira comes close to "outgunning" the Sovereign.

3. The Prometheus was able to disable a Nebula class ship in a single pass, and destroy a Romulan Warbird while most of its systems were damaged. Not to mention, Starfleet sent an Akira and two Defiants to stop the Prometheus, and the Prometheus was able to withstand the attack from three warbirds on top of the Starfleet ships. And that was while it was on almost complete computer control. So don't tell me the Prometheus isn't more powerful than an Akira. :p
1. corvette is a size based classification, escort is a role, and a pc term for warship in starfleet

2. see the model they used for filming yourself, i count at least 15. it doesn't get more canon then a filming model.

http://drexfiles.wordpress.com/2009/...e-akira-class/

its also theorized that the fore and aft launches in the torpdeo pod actually can rotate and expose more launchers wile others reload.

the soverign? well lets examine its torpedo potential. fore- a 3 burst quantum launcher, a duel 2 burst launcher under the deflector, and 1 single shot launcher a few decks below the bridge. aft- duel 2 burst launcher above saucer shuttle bay, single shot launcher above aft shuttle bay, and a launcher at the lowest deck pointing aft, proboly 2 burst. fore torpedo potential of 8, plus additional quantum damage bonus, aft potential of 7. the burst potential i list is based off of extremely careful observation of the scimitar battle. the enterprise was going all out, if it could have launched more in a burst, it would have.

so the sovereign outguns the akira torpedo wise if every single launcher on the akira has to reload every time it fires 1 torpedo, and we don't count potential launchers hidden until the launchers that looks like they are on a wheel rotates to expose freshly loaded launchers.

it doesn't seem to mater how many times i explain it, no body gets it and i always have to post the whole phaser array explanation again. phaser arrays arn't guns, it doesn't mater how many a ship has, what matters is how long they are. the akira's Dorsal array, its longest, is longer then the sovereign's Dorsal array, its longest. the akira's longest array thus has more emitters segment. each emitter segment has its own individual charge and can act independently to fire a phaser beam. every emitter segment can also shunt its power into the rest of the array and contribute to a phaser beam. the more emitters that contribute to a phaser beam, the more powerful the shot can be. i know this is how it works because we see the charge moving along the array in the tv shows, and the technical manual fills in the other details. most ships just have those tiny arrays to make sure the ship has no blind spots and so some damage can be dealt to a target if the longest main arrays are not able to fire at it.

so, an akira could outgun a sovereign, but i don't think it could beat one 1 on 1. the sovereign is quite a bit beefier and proboly has stronger shields and thicker armor and more total energy to power its offense and defence.

3. its amazing how differently i view what happened in that episode compared to everyone else, here's my version. the nebula was overclocking its engines, its best is 9.9 'safely'. the romulans in the stolen ship that can go faster then that were proboly going faster then that. the nebula was redlining its engines, had shields up, and was firing its huge main phaser array, it was operating beyond safety limits. so when they engaged MVAM and fired on the nebula all it took was a tap on the shoulder to knock it out of warp, thus ending its threat to the prometheus.

when it finished off a warbird, it destroyed something that had just been beat on by an akira and 2 defients for a couple of minutes. the promethius only got hit a few time, and it sounded like it was quite close to being destroyed when they finally split and started shooting at the romulans. starfleet sent 3 gunship because overkill was required, the promethius could NOT fall into enemy hands, and it was probable that they were going to encounter romulan ships in their pursuit as well.

the Prometheus is a light cruiser, another size based designation, with a tiny amount of usable internal space because it has to separate into 3 fully autonomous ships, and needs the systems and equipment to run 3 separate ships for short durations. the section and the ship as a whole have relatively small phaser arrays, (that means wimpy) an intrepid has larger, and proboly only 2 or 3 single shot torpedo launchers per section, there just wouldn't be room for larger more complex launchers. if the nebula had knocked the Prometheus out of warp, separated or not, it proboly would have been little threat to a battleship like a nebula, a ship theoretically as tough as a galaxy.

ive often pondered what the point of this ship is, an intrepid could proboly out gun it unseparated, but would be overwealmed by MVAM. i think it was built to be a rapid response interceptor that targets enemy scouts and overwhelms and destroys them. a separated prometheus is proboly a lot better at going toe to toe with a squadron of 3 jemhadar fighters then a single starship would be. its 1 light cruiser that can become 3 destroyers and engage on equal footing an enemy that deploy small ships in groups.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
01-22-2012, 02:00 AM
If I may ask, where does it state that about the phaser strip being longer on the Akira then the sovereign? And even if those torpedo launchers could 'rotate to unleash more firepower in a direction' we still have the fact in First Contact they do not unload this "battleship amount of firepower."

Akira would be suited more as an escort/cruiser mix ingame, sure. But I'm not seeing why it's supposed to be more powerful by default then the Defiant. If anything shouldn't they be same tier, as both were built to combat the borg as warships? Then you'd have your more 'tanky'/heavy firepower but not as agile escort, then a faster/agile, not as tough HP-wise, but also heavy firepower escort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
01-22-2012, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wildblade85 View Post
If I may ask, where does it state that about the phaser strip being longer on the Akira then the sovereign? And even if those torpedo launchers could 'rotate to unleash more firepower in a direction' we still have the fact in First Contact they do not unload this "battleship amount of firepower."

Akira would be suited more as an escort/cruiser mix ingame, sure. But I'm not seeing why it's supposed to be more powerful by default then the Defiant. If anything shouldn't they be same tier, as both were built to combat the borg as warships? Then you'd have your more 'tanky'/heavy firepower but not as agile escort, then a faster/agile, not as tough HP-wise, but also heavy firepower escort.
well, it doesn't say it anywhere, but if you look at the ships next to each other its clear. heres a good picture, but you will have to copy the link and paste it into your browser, and remove the space after http:

http: //www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/akira/akira-sovereign.jpg

i'll say it again, the defiant showed how tough it was when it proved a match for an 80 year old excelcior class, uprated though it might have been. that's how tough it is, which is impressive for such a small ship. an excelsior is inferior to a brand new bigger and better akira, nobody is going to dispute that right? so the defiant couldn't be as powerful as an akira.
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