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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
01-23-2012, 06:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
well, it doesn't say it anywhere, but if you look at the ships next to each other its clear. heres a good picture, but you will have to copy the link and paste it into your browser, and remove the space after http:

http: //www.ex-astris-scientia.org/articles/akira/akira-sovereign.jpg

i'll say it again, the defiant showed how tough it was when it proved a match for an 80 year old excelcior class, uprated though it might have been. that's how tough it is, which is impressive for such a small ship. an excelsior is inferior to a brand new bigger and better akira, nobody is going to dispute that right? so the defiant couldn't be as powerful as an akira.
Actually the only thing we can be certain is 80 years old on the Lakota is the spaceframe design. The ship itself could've been commissioned decades after the Excelsior was first introduced. And consequently what technology is "under the hood" could be considerably newer, even before the ship was upgraded. Since it's never stated in Star Trek how much of a ship's design can be changed, and at what pace technology advanced between TMP and TNG/DS9, it's impossible to draw any reasonable conclusion about how technologically advanced the Lakota was before its upgrade. Even if we assume that it wasn't obselete by 2371/72, we don't know at what point a ship becomes so out of date that it's of no use to Starfleet, so that doesn't tell us anything.

Plus we don't know what exact upgrades were made to the Lakota (other than that it was abnormally powerful for an Excelsior class starship). So, since we have no way of telling how powerful the Lakota is, the Lakota v Defiant battle tells us absolutely nothing about the Defiant. It's like trying to solve X in the equation X + 3 = Y, where you don't know what Y is. It's impossible.

And I could've sworn the Defiant proved itself in battle with the Klingons and the Dominion just as much, if not even more so, than one engagement with the Lakota where neither crew was really prepared to finish the job and destroy the other ship.

So no, you can't, from that, say that Akira must be more powerful than the Defiant. Non-canon comments about the Akira's role and it having 15 torpedo launchers are also pretty much useless, since one of the designers suggested it was supposed to be some sort of carrier with a three-deck shuttle bay that covered the entire saucer area. Which as is remarked upon at EAS is kind of unlikely since you'd struggle to fit Peregine Fighters into the shuttlebay doors.

Have a solution, though, since I'm quite fond of the Akira and would like to use it: Bring the Norway class out of mothballs and put it where the Akira is. And then use the Akira as the Fleet Escort with a slight increase in crew numbers. Sod the Dervish and its variants, they're ugly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
01-23-2012, 12:43 PM
I would personally like to see an akira with torp bonuses, +50% quantum and transphasic torpedo damage and 270 degree firing arks?

But yes, in general I feel like the Escorts have been neglected, pretty much the same ships are all you can fly (with modest variants) since beta. Beyond this, your forced to go Klingon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
01-23-2012, 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot-Cancer View Post
Actually the only thing we can be certain is 80 years old on the Lakota is the spaceframe design. The ship itself could've been commissioned decades after the Excelsior was first introduced. And consequently what technology is "under the hood" could be considerably newer, even before the ship was upgraded. Since it's never stated in Star Trek how much of a ship's design can be changed, and at what pace technology advanced between TMP and TNG/DS9, it's impossible to draw any reasonable conclusion about how technologically advanced the Lakota was before its upgrade. Even if we assume that it wasn't obselete by 2371/72, we don't know at what point a ship becomes so out of date that it's of no use to Starfleet, so that doesn't tell us anything.

Plus we don't know what exact upgrades were made to the Lakota (other than that it was abnormally powerful for an Excelsior class starship). So, since we have no way of telling how powerful the Lakota is, the Lakota v Defiant battle tells us absolutely nothing about the Defiant. It's like trying to solve X in the equation X + 3 = Y, where you don't know what Y is. It's impossible.

And I could've sworn the Defiant proved itself in battle with the Klingons and the Dominion just as much, if not even more so, than one engagement with the Lakota where neither crew was really prepared to finish the job and destroy the other ship.

So no, you can't, from that, say that Akira must be more powerful than the Defiant. Non-canon comments about the Akira's role and it having 15 torpedo launchers are also pretty much useless, since one of the designers suggested it was supposed to be some sort of carrier with a three-deck shuttle bay that covered the entire saucer area. Which as is remarked upon at EAS is kind of unlikely since you'd struggle to fit Peregine Fighters into the shuttlebay doors.

Have a solution, though, since I'm quite fond of the Akira and would like to use it: Bring the Norway class out of mothballs and put it where the Akira is. And then use the Akira as the Fleet Escort with a slight increase in crew numbers. Sod the Dervish and its variants, they're ugly.
ok, so you do think an excelsior can be more powerful then an akira. let me remind you that the akira is brand new and state of the art in every way, equipped with very long phaser arrays, 15+ clearly visible on the filming model torpedo bays, and is 1.4 times the size of the lakota. also, its clearly visible on the filming model that a through carrier the akira is not, there is no forward door that would need to be at least 3 decks high. it was just an idea the ships original designer had, it did not translate into canon.

there is actually quite a lot we can divine about how much of a ship can change and be upgraded if we examine things closely. firstly, why is it we never see the B type excelsior more often? out of universe explanation is at that point it didn't exist before generations was filmed. but why didnt we ever see any more of them in any dominion war fleets? no real excuse not to use that variant instead of the original design.

the conclusion i draw is that that at the time of its introduction the b type excelsior was an improved version of the original, but after several decades and refit it was found the original design and the B design could be upgraded to the exact same level, leaving the B design unneeded and no longer necessary. clearly the b design didnt stop or slow down production of the original design, those are still everywhere. the lakota itself does have quite a high registry number for such an old design, 42768, so i estimate it was built in the late 2340, with registry numbers in the 10000s in the 2420 and 70000 in the 2460s.

i have a hard time believing the space frame and hull strength is significantly improved over the original in the 23rd century, because its exterior hasn't changed at all since then. if it was upgraded to late 24th century standard, it would look more late 24th century. at most its hull is reenforced by a structural integrity system, a technology newer then the class. more then that and they would have to basically rebuild the ship, or there would be visible exterior armor. its likely excelsior built in the early-mid 24th century had improved structures and hulls over 23rd century examples, but not so much that there is a visible difference.

just about all the internal systems can surely be swapped out with newer equipment, even major things like phasers, warp drive. even with the upgrades it will still be inferior to a newer class with those upgrades as part of its original design. some common sense has to be used in this analysis.

so the result is a fairly modern ship in some respects, but compared to brand new designs its brittle, still has inferior weapon systems, and none of the improvement over the years were drastic enough to change 1 exterior detail. its an old workhorse that's still useful but is long past its prime, and over due for replacement and retirement.

even though it hit hard for an excelsior class, it wasn't hitting hard for a modern ship its size. they never bothered ripping apart the primary hull and installing modern phaser arrays on them. being equipped with quantum torpedoes isn't necessarily special, its just ammo and if starfleet is smart they wouldn't make the caseing so different from a photon torpedo that any standard launcher couldn't fire one.

the Lakota is 16 times larger then the defiant, so its impressive that such a small ship could beat a ship so much larger, even if it was an old under gunned cruiser. its also arguably the toughest opponent the defiant defeated outright, or would have defeated. the defeint's kills were limited to bug ships, bops, and a breen of unknown power after considerable focus fire. it damaged some keldor and galars, but didn't destroy any, and was avoiding getting in direct fights with them the time the Riker clone stole it. the 1 time a vorcha started shooting at it it barley survived and ran with its tail between its legs. feel free to recheck all the episodes of ds9 that had the defiant in it, i did, and this is the extent of its tactical showing.

so, we know the akira is state of the art, armed to the teeth, and 1.4 times the size of the lakota. we know the Lakota is old and antiquated at least in a tactical sense, is smaller, and is nearly an even match for the pipsqueak battleship defiant. we do know the value of x and y, all it took was a careful examination of what we saw in the show.

i still think the escorts should have been tiered as such-
tier 2 saber
tier 3 defiant
tier 4 current fleet escort
tier 5 akira and Prometheus

i wouldn't protest a tier 5 defiant refit ether, if it was moved down to tier 3. people love the ship, and fun is more impotent than hard canon in a game, though this game has blown off canon quite a bit when it had no reason too. i also think the excelsior should have been the tier 2 cruiser since launch, the Connie had literally been out of active service for 100 years by the time this game takes place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
01-23-2012, 04:30 PM
I would also like to see a T5 Akira! Cruisers got the Excelsior (T3) available at T5 also. Why can't Cryptic do the same for the Akira?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
01-27-2012, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
beating an excelsior is not an accomplishment, even an uprated one. that battle was basically a little kid pushing grampa down the stairs lol. an excelsior is quite underguned and under space framed for a ship its size in the late 24th century. they never bothered installing proper phaser arrays on them, the most it looked like they did was pack a bunch of emitters where the old banks used to be to try to give it better firepower. a small ship armed to the teeth should be a match for a much larger, fragile, 80 year old workhorse. the akira is bigger, newer, and better in every way then an excelsior, thus the defiant being a match for an excelsior does not make it more powerful then an akira.


i'll say it again, the defiant showed how tough it was when it proved a match for an 80 year old excelcior class, uprated though it might have been. that's how tough it is, which is impressive for such a small ship. an excelsior is inferior to a brand new bigger and better akira, nobody is going to dispute that right? so the defiant couldn't be as powerful as an akira.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
ok, so you do think an excelsior can be more powerful then an akira. let me remind you that the akira is brand new and state of the art in every way, equipped with very long phaser arrays, 15+ clearly visible on the filming model torpedo bays, and is 1.4 times the size of the lakota. also, its clearly visible on the filming model that a through carrier the akira is not, there is no forward door that would need to be at least 3 decks high. it was just an idea the ships original designer had, it did not translate into canon.

there is actually quite a lot we can divine about how much of a ship can change and be upgraded if we examine things closely. firstly, why is it we never see the B type excelsior more often? out of universe explanation is at that point it didn't exist before generations was filmed. but why didnt we ever see any more of them in any dominion war fleets? no real excuse not to use that variant instead of the original design.

the conclusion i draw is that that at the time of its introduction the b type excelsior was an improved version of the original, but after several decades and refit it was found the original design and the B design could be upgraded to the exact same level, leaving the B design unneeded and no longer necessary. clearly the b design didnt stop or slow down production of the original design, those are still everywhere. the lakota itself does have quite a high registry number for such an old design, 42768, so i estimate it was built in the late 2340, with registry numbers in the 10000s in the 2420 and 70000 in the 2460s.

i have a hard time believing the space frame and hull strength is significantly improved over the original in the 23rd century, because its exterior hasn't changed at all since then. if it was upgraded to late 24th century standard, it would look more late 24th century. at most its hull is reenforced by a structural integrity system, a technology newer then the class. more then that and they would have to basically rebuild the ship, or there would be visible exterior armor. its likely excelsior built in the early-mid 24th century had improved structures and hulls over 23rd century examples, but not so much that there is a visible difference.

just about all the internal systems can surely be swapped out with newer equipment, even major things like phasers, warp drive. even with the upgrades it will still be inferior to a newer class with those upgrades as part of its original design. some common sense has to be used in this analysis.

so the result is a fairly modern ship in some respects, but compared to brand new designs its brittle, still has inferior weapon systems, and none of the improvement over the years were drastic enough to change 1 exterior detail. its an old workhorse that's still useful but is long past its prime, and over due for replacement and retirement.

even though it hit hard for an excelsior class, it wasn't hitting hard for a modern ship its size. they never bothered ripping apart the primary hull and installing modern phaser arrays on them. being equipped with quantum torpedoes isn't necessarily special, its just ammo and if starfleet is smart they wouldn't make the caseing so different from a photon torpedo that any standard launcher couldn't fire one.

the Lakota is 16 times larger then the defiant, so its impressive that such a small ship could beat a ship so much larger, even if it was an old under gunned cruiser. its also arguably the toughest opponent the defiant defeated outright, or would have defeated. the defeint's kills were limited to bug ships, bops, and a breen of unknown power after considerable focus fire. it damaged some keldor and galars, but didn't destroy any, and was avoiding getting in direct fights with them the time the Riker clone stole it. the 1 time a vorcha started shooting at it it barley survived and ran with its tail between its legs. feel free to recheck all the episodes of ds9 that had the defiant in it, i did, and this is the extent of its tactical showing.

so, we know the akira is state of the art, armed to the teeth, and 1.4 times the size of the lakota. we know the Lakota is old and antiquated at least in a tactical sense, is smaller, and is nearly an even match for the pipsqueak battleship defiant. we do know the value of x and y, all it took was a careful examination of what we saw in the show.

i still think the escorts should have been tiered as such-
tier 2 saber
tier 3 defiant
tier 4 current fleet escort
tier 5 akira and Prometheus

i wouldn't protest a tier 5 defiant refit ether, if it was moved down to tier 3. people love the ship, and fun is more impotent than hard canon in a game, though this game has blown off canon quite a bit when it had no reason too. i also think the excelsior should have been the tier 2 cruiser since launch, the Connie had literally been out of active service for 100 years by the time this game takes place.
you do realize that every argument you have made against the defiant and Lakota class completely contradict canon as per various DS9 Episodes and that every "fact" of the akira you spout are based on a video game that is NOT canon? you say the Akira is a brand new design starship. according to whom? they certainly do not say it in any film or TV episode. for all you know the Akira could be a escort or light cruiser design from the same era as the ambassador class. there s nothing in canon to say otherwise. conversely, it is mentioned several times that the defiant has an overpowered warp core, and was designed strictly to combat the borg. the pulse phaser cannons are channelled directly from that warp core. you claim 15 torpedo tubs are "clearly" visible in the first contact film. um, no that's wishful thinking. Defiant has both quantum and photon torpedo tubes, per cannon, so there are a minimum of 4 tubes, 2 of each. I'm trying to recall if there are more than two topedoes in the salvo, I cannot recall. we know the akira has at least 5 tubes because of the salvos fired in first contact. they were older, and warhead for warhead, inferior photons. have to give the nod in weapons to Defiant. now lets make an assumption that the warp cores for each class are rated at the same power output. the akira is MUCH MUCH bigger than defiant. if you are putting out a shield that is limited to the output of your power source, IE the warp drive, it only makes sense that a shield that is covering a smaller area is stronger. again, nod to defiant. add to that the defiant is structured to withstand a lot of hammering, quite obvious from the interior design details, where is it much more likely the interior construction of an akira hull is closer to a galaxy or Sovereign hull design.
finally, Defiant has ablative armor. there is nothing in canon anywhere where any starship other than defiant comes with ANY armor.

that said, I think Defiant should be the tier 5 escort, espcially the refits and sao paulo. the akira should be the tier 4, and the non MVAM prometheus the tier three, with the MVAM being tier 5

but lets take it a step further. lets assume for one mom
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
01-27-2012, 04:54 PM
It's hard to judge the relative strength of starships based on what we've seen on the shows. We've seen the Defiant go toe-to-toe with Cardassian and Jem'hadar warships, and come out the victor with nary a scuff, and other times it's been wrung through by the same foes. We've seen starships like the Galaxy face off against giant Romulan warbirds, and then get destroyed by an antique Bird-of-Prey.

I can't remember if it was this thread, or another one I read recently, but someone said something quite accurate: the ships were only ever as strong or weak as the writers needed them to be from episode to episode. The Lakota was a reuse of the Enterprise-B model from Star Trek: Generations. This is before they introduced the Akira-class in First Contact, so really, the pool of available starships was pretty small then, and it's likely someone just grabbed it and said, "Hey, we don't get a lot of chances to use this ship, let's make it the Lakota".

I know, I know, what's on screen is canon, but you also gotta take it with a grain of salt. Though they never outright say so, the implication is that the Lakota received upgrades that were probably top secret at the time, experimental upgrades that were intended to make it one of the most powerful ships in Starfleet. The whole story was about covert black ops, so it stands to reason that the Lakota's upgrades were pretty extensive. It also stands to reason that both the Lakota and the Defiant were pulling their punches, neither really wanting to gun down the other.

In short, the fine details about almost any ship in Starfleet is up to debate due to inconsistencies, and arguing about that sort of stuff isn't gonna get anyone anywhere. Still, as someone who proudly flies the Defiant Retrofit, I'd love to see a T5 Akira. Escorts could use a little more flavor, and in my opinion, an Akira retrofit should get some kind of bonus to beams and/or torpedoes, just to stay more in line with what we've seen on screen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
01-27-2012, 08:58 PM
It's because the Defiant was captained by a show runner captain and not someone else.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
01-27-2012, 11:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadovarn View Post
It's because the Defiant was captained by a show runner captain and not someone else.
Exactly. T4 is when all the main 'show' ships become available to players. Galaxy (TNG), Defiant (DS9), and Intrepid (Voyager).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
01-28-2012, 02:30 AM
wow. well this ladys and gentlemen is what it looks like when a fan boy's ship is proven to not be the best thing ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
you do realize that every argument you have made against the defiant and Lakota class completely contradict canon as per various DS9 Episodes and that every "fact" of the akira you spout are based on a video game that is NOT canon?
game? what are you talking about. looking at the filming model, know its dementions and seeing it in action provided all the "fact" in my last post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
you say the Akira is a brand new design starship. according to whom? they certainly do not say it in any film or TV episode. for all you know the Akira could be a escort or light cruiser design from the same era as the ambassador class. there s nothing in canon to say otherwise.
lol, truly grasping at anything with this. the akira and sovereign have the same escape pods and the same banner style and delta across their hull, they are of similar age in universe and out. even if the akira is some old design, it must have recently gotten a refit that makes it look at least as new as a galaxy class. its a heavy cruiser because of its size. words like heavy cruiser, light cruiser, battleship and destroyer are all size based designations. a word like escort, or general purpose is a role.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
conversely, it is mentioned several times that the defiant has an overpowered warp core, and was designed strictly to combat the borg. the pulse phaser cannons are channelled directly from that warp core.
its a big warp core for a ship that small. it is still a dinky little power plant compared to what larger ships have. phasers have been powered directly from impulse reactors, auxiliary power sources and the warpcore for more more then a century.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
you claim 15 torpedo tubs are "clearly" visible in the first contact film. um, no that's wishful thinking.
if you cant see ~15 torpedo launchers in these pictures of the fimling model-
http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com...ira_beauty.jpg
http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com...akira_side.jpg
http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com...akira_top1.jpg
http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com...kira_front.jpg
http://drexfiles.files.wordpress.com...akira_back.jpg

you are blind, or in denial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
Defiant has both quantum and photon torpedo tubes, per cannon, so there are a minimum of 4 tubes, 2 of each. I'm trying to recall if there are more than two topedoes in the salvo, I cannot recall.
quantum torpedoes are ammo. they can be fired from any torp launcher. ive seen the forward launchers fire 3 each in quick succession, i consider them burst 3 launchers. there's an aft launcher too, seen fired at the lakota.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
we know the akira has at least 5 tubes because of the salvos fired in first contact. they were older, and warhead for warhead, inferior photons. have to give the nod in weapons to Defiant.
we know it has about 15 because that model you see in the movie is the model in those pictures and you can see 15 launchers. more grasping about its photon warheads being inferior, that's completely baseless.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
now lets make an assumption that the warp cores for each class are rated at the same power output. the akira is MUCH MUCH bigger than defiant. if you are putting out a shield that is limited to the output of your power source, IE the warp drive, it only makes sense that a shield that is covering a smaller area is stronger. again, nod to defiant. add to that the defiant is structured to withstand a lot of hammering, quite obvious from the interior design details, where is it much more likely the interior construction of an akira hull is closer to a galaxy or Sovereign hull design.
no, i will not assume that, the akira's warp core is at least 4 times larger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
finally, Defiant has ablative armor. there is nothing in canon anywhere where any starship other than defiant comes with ANY armor.
hull=armor. ablative armor=plot armor. it needs it, ship is tiny, but needs to survive because its the hero.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vetteguy904
that said, I think Defiant should be the tier 5 escort, espcially the refits and sao paulo. the akira should be the tier 4, and the non MVAM prometheus the tier three, with the MVAM being tier 5

but lets take it a step further. lets assume for one mom
defiant should be tier 3 with a tier 5 refit so everyone that likes it can play it at top tier, like i said last post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
01-28-2012, 04:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yreodred

I absolutely agree.
I think that every ship should have some pros and cons.
Crew size and Ship size should have a much bigger impact than now. Each ship should be unique in its own way and not be pressed into (wrong) tiers.


Live long and prosper.
Now i wont say too much but i think i know what you mean when you say "(ships) pressed into (wrong) tiers" eg:

* Cruisers
Primary - Engineers (Tank)
Secondary - Tactical (DPS)
N/A - Science

* Escorts / Light Escorts
Primary - Tactical (DPS)
Secondary - Engineers (DPS)
N/A - Science

* Exploration / science
Primary - Science (DPS - Support)
Secondary - Engineers (DPS - Support)
N/A - Tactical

* Dreadnoughts
Primary - Engineers (Tank - DPS)
Secondary - Tactical (Tank -DPS)
Tertiary - Science (DPS - Support)


Now would i LIKE to see these role tasks demanded by limitations in game? No, oh hell no my main is a Science officer but i love to jump in my cruiser load up on beams and rainbow blast while throwing out some extended shields or tractor beams, it makes my day to throw out some DPS in a truly MASSIVE ship.

On that note i have also seem some frankly amazing combos on youtube in regards to various class's taking "out of class" ships into battle purely for cosmetics and simply overcoming the ships limitations with skill and use of resources.

Would it be nice to be able to remotely identify the captain of your enemy PVP cruiser is a weedy Scientist intent on pinning you down and removing all your buffs, shields and disabling your weapons or a raging roid induced Tactical officer geared up for combat or if hes a spanner jockey with more tricks and by tricks i mean more cannons than should be humanly possible) ready to soak up damage like a spounge and then throw it right back at you...

...well yes being able to see it coming would be nice, but wheres the fun in that?
this is star trek, the ships and the ability to have any darn ship you want is PART of the game, dont make this about classes and roles, that's what WoW is for, just enjoy the diversity and fly whatever you want, no its not efficient sometimes its just silly but just try to remember the game was designed so that there realy is no WRONG way to play or level. Sure there are ways to min/max for the truly dedicated and yes some configurations are better than others but screaming L2P is not going to help that scientist who loves the U.S.S Defiant on DS9 picking an escort class ship and refusing to re-roll because he likes his character and nobody and i mean NOBODY has the right to make him change how he loves to play.
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