Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
01-23-2012, 04:55 PM
@badbeaumont

for all the clueless that you claim to want to point out of other people, I thought I'd point out a particularly clueless statement from your post

Quote:
Some of the greats (Era, Bieber, Jorfaid, among others) will regularly out-damage escorts.
If you hang around in a fight longer, as opposed to hit and run like escorts, you will obviously rack up more damage numbers. If you are always present in the fight as a healer when an enemy is going down and you are firing on him like you should you will always get that kill. But you could do me a million damage in a match and still never get a kill. Damage does not = kills.

An escorts damage is usually what is needed to push a guy over the edge. That large burst in that small amount of time. Re: Large damage small amount of time. Rather than large damage spread out over a long period of time (the entire match) but it in the end its a team, and neither is useful without the other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
01-23-2012, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Diablo and I came a across a bunch of escorts in a CnH and together we couldn't crack the MACOs. Yeah we could get a facing to 50% then you saw a tac team, or a RSP or EPtS. The MACO shield is swinging the balance fromt he P2W that the KDF have enjoyed for a very short period back to the feds with tac/Defiants tanking 5. The honorguard shield while nice doesn't hold a candle to the MACO. I am with Otheym because of these shield you may actually see more wolf packs than traditional teams especially considering a escort team needs only bring to MVAMs to get enoigh sci.
I don't believe it's just the shields alone that's changed. They were out in some form roughly when the KDF consoles were released. I still don't know that the KDF consoles are anymore P2W then the 1s the Feds have had, but just newer.

Imo, the thing which changed is Fed Escorts have learned to break tackles/slows if not negate them (tb, ewp, theta, gw, etc). This means their defense rarely drops. So, there's less hits and crit hits along w/proc triggers.

Slightly off subject, have you used plas. leech console&warp core engineer doff&KHG? The buffer tends to last a lot longer when you have high shield and engine power (this won't take away from high weapon power either and will likely add to it). Using energy syphon 1 my power levels get to above 100 in all subsytems usually w/3 of 4 maxed out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
01-23-2012, 05:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
@badbeaumont

for all the clueless that you claim to want to point out of other people, I thought I'd point out a particularly clueless statement from your post



If you hang around in a fight longer, as opposed to hit and run like escorts, you will obviously rack up more damage numbers. If you are always present in the fight as a healer when an enemy is going down and you are firing on him like you should you will always get that kill. But you could do me a million damage in a match and still never get a kill. Damage does not = kills.

An escorts damage is usually what is needed to push a guy over the edge. That large burst in that small amount of time. Re: Large damage small amount of time. Rather than large damage spread out over a long period of time (the entire match) but it in the end its a team, and neither is useful without the other.
and the whole time, that damage is softening up targets for those escorts. Making players waste heals and keeping the escort alive long enough to get that kill. That is the engy cruiser's job. Play to your classes strength and you will succeed. If you want to kill people all by your lonesome, you are in the wrong profession.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
01-23-2012, 06:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmr1580 View Post
Are you saying that they need to remove the "hard cap" from Cruisers or from all classes of starships? I, for one, do not want to run into an escort that puts every single shot out at 125 (Weapons Batteries, EP2W, RMC can all make this happen).

I know the cap of 125 used to include up to 135 in reserve. meaning you wouldn't start dropping until you had used more than 10. I don't know if this is still the case. I've heard differing arguments on the subject.

I still don't understand this thread's existence. Cruisers are now, and have always been Very valuable teammates. This only applies to cruisers designed around their role as a team support ship and healer in PvP. If you feel totally useless in your cruiser you are doing it wrong. Period.

A good PvP cruiser would probably not amount to anything in a 1v1 other than being an unkillable enemy, nor should it. Why? Too many heals, not enough damage. Conversely, a good 1v1 cruiser build (a friend of mine in his excelsior can regularly kill me, as I can him in my DSSV. But when we team up and go into the queues, he changes BOFF layouts and consoles, smart man) would go up in flames in 5v5 PvP, because he is running too much to boost damage. It's all about teamwork in this game. If you have discovered that, then you are probably having fun. If you are trying to Captain Kirk your way through PvP in a cruiser... well, problem identified.
believe me, i fully understand how to play within the system, im just not happy with the system. i dislike the options the game gives me and i would like to see the system changed. that's why im posting in this thread.

i was talking about the hard cap period, i guess an escort could boost its weapons power sky high for a short time, long enough for an alpha strike. but at what cost? that shield tanking that escorts can do so well now wont be nearly as manageable if they give up engineering stations for weapons power boosting. the escort would need about 175 power if it ran with 4 DHC up front to get them all to fire at 125 effect, over 200 if it ran 4 turrets too. i think only an engineer in an escort could pull that off, and good for that engineer, hes finally able to use his abilities to their maximum effect.

i think it would be a healthy thing honestly, its to easy to be invincible in this game, i can shrug off an escort's attacks all day in my cruiser builds, cant really put a dent in him ether though. if we were both going for broke with weapon energy maxed a duel might actually end, a good thing. in teams the damage dealers would end up less tanky but capable of dealing more damage. i'd like to see how it plays out in arena matches, tribble should be used for testing radical changes like this

i just don't understand why people are ok with the way things are now, i guess i just want the game to feel more like star trek. star ships shouldn't be able to heal them selfs and others like this, these are starships, not warriors, wizards and clerics using magic that can do anything and need know explanation. i'd rather have a more realistic science fiction take on things.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
01-23-2012, 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
believe me, i fully understand how to play within the system, im just not happy with the system. i dislike the options the game gives me and i would like to see the system changed. that's why im posting in this thread.

i was talking about the hard cap period, i guess an escort could boost its weapons power sky high for a short time, long enough for an alpha strike. but at what cost? that shield tanking that escorts can do so well now wont be nearly as manageable if they give up engineering stations for weapons power boosting. the escort would need about 175 power if it ran with 4 DHC up front to get them all to fire at 125 effect, over 200 if it ran 4 turrets too. i think only an engineer in an escort could pull that off, and good for that engineer, hes finally able to use his abilities to their maximum effect.

i think it would be a healthy thing honestly, its to easy to be invincible in this game, i can shrug off an escort's attacks all day in my cruiser builds, cant really put a dent in him ether though. if we were both going for broke with weapon energy maxed a duel might actually end, a good thing. in teams the damage dealers would end up less tanky but capable of dealing more damage. i'd like to see how it plays out in arena matches, tribble should be used for testing radical changes like this

i just don't understand why people are ok with the way things are now, i guess i just want the game to feel more like star trek. star ships shouldn't be able to heal them selfs and others like this, these are starships, not warriors, wizards and clerics using magic that can do anything and need know explanation. i'd rather have a more realistic science fiction take on things.
Then what would be the point of having different classes at all? It is still a role playing game and the "Trek Experience" MUST (however regretably) suffer as a result. The only place it is even noticeable is in PvP. If they left the skill tree out and turned it into a different type of game that supported your style of play, then maybe. RPG's have roles, you fill your role or you aren't effective. Simple as that.

Sorry this game doesn't lay out your skills for you like other games where you gain certain skills automatically by levelling and your input is minimal, choices have to be made in STO. If you choose poorly, your gameplay will suffer as a result. If you want to kill people in PvP you are not going to do it as an engineer. Nor should you.

It is a pipe dream to expect it and pie in the sky if you think it can happen while still filling your role. Suppression and support for engineers. Dealing death blows, tac or, to some extent, sci. (Though sci is better as the setup for his tac wingman while delivering constant kinetic and CC)

I'm not trying to sound condescending, but your expectations for the game don't match the reality. RPG's, especially MMORPG's are geared to the current style of play with the "holy trinity" People who don't think the trinity applies in STO are wrong, it does, and teams work best when you utilize all 3.

Praise be the Holy Pasta
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
01-23-2012, 09:05 PM
It's worse if you're a Klink engineer in a bop. Fed tac escorts can now out tank me. Even with rsf & tss3 or epts3 with tac team I still can't face my target long enough to do any damage. It seems miracle worker is the only thing keeping me in the game. Oh and now we've lost our maneuvering advantage to the Omega set.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
01-23-2012, 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmr1580 View Post
and the whole time, that damage is softening up targets for those escorts. Making players waste heals and keeping the escort alive long enough to get that kill. That is the engy cruiser's job. Play to your classes strength and you will succeed. If you want to kill people all by your lonesome, you are in the wrong profession.
This.

Extend 3 will make one of your Escorts nigh untouchable for it's duration while the rest of your arsenal of heals can help another quite healthy and pew pew'ing away.

An Eng/Cruiser isn't going to kill anyone (well, maybe... depends on everyone's heal cycles). Their main goal is fire support.

Trust me, I don't care who you are (unless you're Era), you are going to feel the pressure from a 6-8 beam broadside. That pressure is going to make one of 3 things happen:
  1. You or your teammates ignore that damage and you die.
  2. For whatever reason, you're not getting heals (nothing is available or just no one is healing you), and you're forced to break combat/run/get out of range of the Cruiser.
  3. [The most likely scenario] Your team uses valuable heals that would otherwise be sent to elsewhere to you, in order to stave off your (slow, but assured) death at the hands of the Cruiser. Your Escort's target is then more easily destroyed.

That support pressure damage is invaluable.

If you're really insistent upon getting the kill yourself, you want a Sci/Escort.

EDIT: Also, regarding the 'holy trinity' of DPS/Mage/Tank... get a Tac/Sci. It breaks the rules by being all 3; trust me, a Tac buffed GW 3 or PSW 3 is downright terrifying. Especially when you've got massive heals to back yourself up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
01-23-2012, 11:21 PM
its like all the great players are just spouting build advice for new F2P'rs.

welcome all, see you in the q's soon.

keep reading and testing! you will find something that works... join the opvp channel!

have fun kill bad guys

horizon
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
01-24-2012, 02:13 AM
Despite all the self congratulating and back patting going on, you've all made the erroneous assumption that I somehow don't know how to play this game.

How you all came to that conclusion is beyond me.

Apparently you're all quite happy with the healbot role. That's fine. I've played with all of you and I've not seen a single instance of cruiser "suppression fire" making a bit of difference.

In fact I watched as Bieber, Jorfaid, and another cruiser who's name I didn't catch all put their "impressive dps" to work against Aytanhi in a capture and hold. Now all are pretty good players, and a single escort alone against three engineers is nearly an impossible task.

All three of them firing beams could barely dent his shields. Course Aytanhi didn't get anywhere either, but he constantly put them on the ropes, blasting thru a single facing into hull occasionally.

Being on their team, capturing a point, I watched it all. Initially I wanted to say something smug about it, but it seems you guys turn a blind eye to actual good, well outfitted pvpers, and fist pump when the poorly equipped pug escort gets blown up under your weight of fire.

=====

Consider the makeup of an organized team. There are a couple different ways of doing it, but most include 1 engineer, AT MOST. That one engineer will be a pimp healer with multiple EPtS, ETs, extends, and hazards. He fills a necessary healing role, but that same role can be filled by a sci ship easily. But why waste a ship with such good offense and crowd control? The rest will all be escorts and sci ships, with some variation.

Putting more than 1 engineer cruiser on the team is a recipe for disaster in the current shields environment. The lack of offense will just draw out your loss. I haven't seen a single engineer cruiser that's proven be otherwise. In the past the cruisers could throw down a weight of fire to dissuade a escort, if not make him scramble. Now all those beams are laughable as they try to scratch MACO.

A cruiser might be the pebble on the mountain of DPS that breaks a tank, but a couple lucky crits will do the same from a tac escort.

So brag about your healing all you like. That Tac escort on your stern will stay there until your team rescues you, or you die. And you can't do anything about it, cause you'll never get thru his shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
01-24-2012, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmr1580 View Post
Then what would be the point of having different classes at all? It is still a role playing game and the "Trek Experience" MUST (however regretably) suffer as a result. The only place it is even noticeable is in PvP. If they left the skill tree out and turned it into a different type of game that supported your style of play, then maybe. RPG's have roles, you fill your role or you aren't effective. Simple as that.

Sorry this game doesn't lay out your skills for you like other games where you gain certain skills automatically by levelling and your input is minimal, choices have to be made in STO. If you choose poorly, your gameplay will suffer as a result. If you want to kill people in PvP you are not going to do it as an engineer. Nor should you.

It is a pipe dream to expect it and pie in the sky if you think it can happen while still filling your role. Suppression and support for engineers. Dealing death blows, tac or, to some extent, sci. (Though sci is better as the setup for his tac wingman while delivering constant kinetic and CC)

I'm not trying to sound condescending, but your expectations for the game don't match the reality. RPG's, especially MMORPG's are geared to the current style of play with the "holy trinity" People who don't think the trinity applies in STO are wrong, it does, and teams work best when you utilize all 3.

Praise be the Holy Pasta
that's a great big exaggeration of what im asking, but it seems useless to keep trying to explain what im asking for because it gets brushed aside so i can be graced with everyone's sage advice, that is at the very least outdated as it stands. this post really captures exactly what ive been experiencing lately, and why im being vocal about change- http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...1&postcount=34

holy trinity is fine, but it barley exists in game as it stands. science ships can do the job cruisers do now, and cause much more harm to the enemy at the same time. cruisers are nearly irreverent now, they do basically no damage, they aren't worth the opportunity cost of an extra escort that can tank nearly as well, bug out if necessary at a moments notice, and deal 10 times more damage.

i know wanting thing more trek is a pipe dream, but i don't think its a pipe dream to want balance, and the holy trinity restored. in my opinion lifting the hard cap provides that, then cruisers can deal that pressure damage you all think it already does. with cruisers and escorts dealing more damage people will need all those heals like they used to, giving another reason for cruisers to be there.

as far as the skill tree goes and the rpg elements, those are fine, they just aren't in the right place and cost to much real money to adjust. the ground skills should be left were they are, those are your actual characters traits, but all space skills should be moved to the ship costume customizer in the ship yard. the skills should be renamed refits options or equipment loadout or something, and should be adjustable when ever you visit at the cost of energy credits. you should be able to adjust as you see fit a little or a lot, and each ship should have its own refit profile saved to it, so when you swap ships the setup stays with it. your ship is a character in and of its self, let your captain have his captain skills and your ship have its ship skills, or equipment loadout.
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