Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
01-24-2012, 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
In fact I watched as Bieber, Jorfaid, and another cruiser who's name I didn't catch all put their "impressive dps" to work against Aytanhi in a capture and hold. Now all are pretty good players, and a single escort alone against three engineers is nearly an impossible task.
Well, I asked Jorf and he told me he has no idea what you're talking about, and that he hasn't played Cap'n'Hold since before Season 5. I think he also threw in something like "lol CnH" for good measure :p

Why you lie?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
Consider the makeup of an organized team. There are a couple different ways of doing it, but most include 1 engineer, AT MOST. That one engineer will be a pimp healer with multiple EPtS, ETs, extends, and hazards. He fills a necessary healing role, but that same role can be filled by a sci ship easily. But why waste a ship with such good offense and crowd control?
Because science vessels and cruisers inhabit separate healing domains. Science vessels are great at HoTs, as well a burst shield healing if running two science teams. Cruisers provide burst hull healing and can fit the higher levels of extend shields. If you lack one domain or the other you have created a significant weak spot on your team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
holy trinity is fine, but it barley exists in game as it stands. science ships can do the job cruisers do now, and cause much more harm to the enemy at the same time. cruisers are nearly irreverent now, they do basically no damage, they aren't worth the opportunity cost of an extra escort that can tank nearly as well, bug out if necessary at a moments notice, and deal 10 times more damage.
An expertly flown engineering cruiser is going to put out anywhere between 50-100% more raw damage than an expertly flown science vessel. Of course, the two damage types aren't very comparable. The SV, assuming he isn't a total noob, is using all torpedoes up front and launching a steady stream of kinetic damage, combined with damage from skills like GW and FBP. The Engineer does AOE energy damage, which is absolutely needed in a proper premade setup. The escort provides focused damage. All of these come together in such a fashion that makes the whole greater than the sum of it's parts. If you're lacking that AOE energy damage from a cruiser your team's overall effectiveness will go down.

And as much as you want more sci/sci on a properly balanced team than tacscorts or eng/cruisers, those later two jobs tend to be more critical. I'd take an awesome healer like Era, over an equally skilled SV pilot anyday. Ditto for a good escort.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
01-24-2012, 05:29 AM
/comfort Engineers and Cruisers
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
01-24-2012, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbeaumont
Well, I asked Jorf and he told me he has no idea what you're talking about, and that he hasn't played Cap'n'Hold since before Season 5. I think he also threw in something like "lol CnH" for good measure :p

Why you lie?



Because science vessels and cruisers inhabit separate healing domains. Science vessels are great at HoTs, as well a burst shield healing if running two science teams. Cruisers provide burst hull healing and can fit the higher levels of extend shields. If you lack one domain or the other you have created a significant weak spot on your team.



An expertly flown engineering cruiser is going to put out anywhere between 50-100% more raw damage than an expertly flown science vessel. Of course, the two damage types aren't very comparable. The SV, assuming he isn't a total noob, is using all torpedoes up front and launching a steady stream of kinetic damage, combined with damage from skills like GW and FBP. The Engineer does AOE energy damage, which is absolutely needed in a proper premade setup. The escort provides focused damage. All of these come together in such a fashion that makes the whole greater than the sum of it's parts. If you're lacking that AOE energy damage from a cruiser your team's overall effectiveness will go down.

And as much as you want more sci/sci on a properly balanced team than tacscorts or eng/cruisers, those later two jobs tend to be more critical. I'd take an awesome healer like Era, over an equally skilled SV pilot anyday. Ditto for a good escort.
Eh, buncha pandas, they all look alike. Bieber was definitely there. Guess I don't know who the other was. Not lying, just mistaken. I play a lotta pvp.

And engineers in cruisers are TERRIBLE at AoE damage. They're good for trash clear with FAW, that's about it. All those little hits just set off shield and borg set procs.

Anyway, we'll agree to disagree. I feel the new maco shields are too much, and should rightly be nerfed. But that might not happen, so cruisers may need to change in their place.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
01-24-2012, 06:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
Anyway, we'll agree to disagree. I feel the new maco shields are too much, and should rightly be nerfed. But that might not happen, so cruisers may need to change in their place.
It makes more sense to me that we address the problem, which is the poorly balanced (rebalanced) set pieces, than to start tinkering with everything else.

If we buy a pair of pants and they are too short, we don't cut off our legs to make them fit. We get different pants.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
01-24-2012, 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruis.In View Post
i dont think anything is wrong with the tanking. What you are forgetting is that with all the new gear/skills etc which are geared toward tanking, the equal has not come for dps. There has been no increase to dps, no increase to the dps that guns do, better consoles for more damage etc...

the only thin which has increased is our ability to tank. so the ability to do more damage needs to be increased. unfortunately the skills which enable higher damage to be applied are all high level skills ltcmdr or cmdr. A lot of nice tanking skills are ensign/lt level, yes the level 3 skills are better but, the ensign/lt tanking skills are far above the skills for ensign/lt tac skills. cannon rapid fire 2, csv 2, thy 2.....need improving in damage.


Actually i have had no issue with dps from my 3 Antiproton DHC, (emblem gear). And my opinion is that no one ship should be able to kill another one ship assuming that thay are of equal skill and built within the purpose of there respective disipline. In other words, a cruisar should be able to out tank 1 escort and an escort should be able to escape from a cruisar. Sci ships are still wild cards to me becasue i have yet to successfully pilot one. This game has always required team work and I hope it stays that way. New gear and new abilities are inevitable, i just hope we dont enable a one man show.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
01-24-2012, 10:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbeaumont
Well, I asked Jorf and he told me he has no idea what you're talking about, and that he hasn't played Cap'n'Hold since before Season 5. I think he also threw in something like "lol CnH" for good measure :p

Why you lie?



Because science vessels and cruisers inhabit separate healing domains. Science vessels are great at HoTs, as well a burst shield healing if running two science teams. Cruisers provide burst hull healing and can fit the higher levels of extend shields. If you lack one domain or the other you have created a significant weak spot on your team.



An expertly flown engineering cruiser is going to put out anywhere between 50-100% more raw damage than an expertly flown science vessel. Of course, the two damage types aren't very comparable. The SV, assuming he isn't a total noob, is using all torpedoes up front and launching a steady stream of kinetic damage, combined with damage from skills like GW and FBP. The Engineer does AOE energy damage, which is absolutely needed in a proper premade setup. The escort provides focused damage. All of these come together in such a fashion that makes the whole greater than the sum of it's parts. If you're lacking that AOE energy damage from a cruiser your team's overall effectiveness will go down.

And as much as you want more sci/sci on a properly balanced team than tacscorts or eng/cruisers, those later two jobs tend to be more critical. I'd take an awesome healer like Era, over an equally skilled SV pilot anyday. Ditto for a good escort.
LOL, Absolutely Fantastic! You're having too much fun :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
01-24-2012, 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
Despite all the self congratulating and back patting going on, you've all made the erroneous assumption that I somehow don't know how to play this game.

How you all came to that conclusion is beyond me.

Apparently you're all quite happy with the healbot role. That's fine. I've played with all of you and I've not seen a single instance of cruiser "suppression fire" making a bit of difference.

In fact I watched as Bieber, Jorfaid, and another cruiser who's name I didn't catch all put their "impressive dps" to work against Aytanhi in a capture and hold. Now all are pretty good players, and a single escort alone against three engineers is nearly an impossible task.

All three of them firing beams could barely dent his shields. Course Aytanhi didn't get anywhere either, but he constantly put them on the ropes, blasting thru a single facing into hull occasionally.

Being on their team, capturing a point, I watched it all. Initially I wanted to say something smug about it, but it seems you guys turn a blind eye to actual good, well outfitted pvpers, and fist pump when the poorly equipped pug escort gets blown up under your weight of fire.

=====

Consider the makeup of an organized team. There are a couple different ways of doing it, but most include 1 engineer, AT MOST. That one engineer will be a pimp healer with multiple EPtS, ETs, extends, and hazards. He fills a necessary healing role, but that same role can be filled by a sci ship easily. But why waste a ship with such good offense and crowd control? The rest will all be escorts and sci ships, with some variation.

Putting more than 1 engineer cruiser on the team is a recipe for disaster in the current shields environment. The lack of offense will just draw out your loss. I haven't seen a single engineer cruiser that's proven be otherwise. In the past the cruisers could throw down a weight of fire to dissuade a escort, if not make him scramble. Now all those beams are laughable as they try to scratch MACO.

A cruiser might be the pebble on the mountain of DPS that breaks a tank, but a couple lucky crits will do the same from a tac escort.

So brag about your healing all you like. That Tac escort on your stern will stay there until your team rescues you, or you die. And you can't do anything about it, cause you'll never get thru his shields.
Otheym many do not remember you and your band of renegades called Section 31, the original Section 31, the group responsible for a lot of QQ in these forums some even by, naive at the time, me. I hear you and good to see you back in the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
01-25-2012, 02:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
Otheym many do not remember you and your band of renegades called Section 31, the original Section 31, the group responsible for a lot of QQ in these forums some even by, naive at the time, me. I hear you and good to see you back in the game.
Thanks. Good to see some friendly faces still around. Sadly, anyone who was probably around then is probably blocking that from their memory, safe in their ignorance from the lack of current competition around now.

Back in the day, PvP was a grudge match between several fleets, and competition was fierce. New specs and tactics popped up every week. 5v5 arena could sometimes last for an hour between fleets. And this was when carriers could launch whole fleets, FBP hit for 500% easy and kill a cruiser in a single broadside (didn't work on cannons back then, that woulda been even scarier), Target Subsystems could drain -200 power additively, and Attack Pattern: Alpha crit was bugged, and a single torp from a HY3 could crit you for 70k with 0% resist. And for a time, your resist could go NEGATIVE. Not that many were happy about those "features". The subsystem drain itself made fights dirty and quick. A low time in PvP there till it was fixed.

I think complacency have replaced competition for most of the current PvP fleets. The new MACO shields just make it worse.

And from my point of view in that space of time, engineers and cruisers have gone from a viable two-three per five back then to one, since defenses, especially on escorts, has increased, cruiser DPS and healing hasn't. Making engineer cruisers much less viable, on all counts.

Era was bragging about doing 1k per beam non crit recently in oPvP. Myself and most top cruisers were doing 1k per beam OVER A YEAR AGO. But I guess ignorance is bliss. With his energy optimization, and loadout, and how weapon power now operates, he would have been hitting for 1500-2k per beam with today's current consoles and MK XI-XII weapons in that old time frame. And would have eaten alive any escort that decided to backpedal or advance at minimum speed, even with heals.

In case you've forgotten, here's a reminder: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alMMueVZYXg
Forget what I'm doin, watch what happens to my shields and hull, with a top-of-the-line purple MK X Covariant capx3 in a pug no less. Against poorly optimized weapons. I do wish I saved all the videos I had back then, specially the fleet matches, but hard drive failures...well, Shaka, when the walls fell.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
01-25-2012, 04:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Otheym81 View Post
And from my point of view in that space of time, engineers and cruisers have gone from a viable two-three per five back then to one, since defenses, especially on escorts, has increased, cruiser DPS and healing hasn't. Making engineer cruisers much less viable, on all counts.
More than one engineer on a premade team is reducing the strength of the team. This has been the case for well over a year now. It's not a new development because of MACO/KHG.

The game is different now than it was in S1 / S1.1. Adapt, form a team and start winning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
01-25-2012, 04:41 AM
did some pvp in my heal/tank/135 weapons energy engineer assault cruiser the last 2 days, to see if i have been imagining things. nope. plenty of 1 on 1 moments against escorts that had no support, things aren't like they used too be. against your average escort, i used to be able to shrug off their assault, breach their shields and force a retreat, or i'd get a kill if he sucked. now i have zero effect on them, the ones with the maco shield don't even have their hull drop below 100%. its only a mater of time before they blow through all my carefully timed and ordered heals and resists before the undamaged escort gets its kill.

in every match the team that had the most escorts won, no other factor made a significant difference. escorts seem to be able to tank as well as cruisers and science ships, not counting thier sky high defenses causing half of whats shot at them to miss. that new miss effect looks great by the way, getting tired of looking at it though. just about the only team mates that needed heals were the other cruisers, less then half my heals went to friendly escorts. every match was focus fire on the cruiser till a team wins, escorts never bothered shooting each other if a cruiser was around

build is as followed

TT1, FAW1, APD1
2xEPtW1, ET2, RSP1, 2xEPtS3, Aux to Struc3 or ES3
HE1,TSS2 or TSS1, HE2

+35 shield cap, 2x blue mk11 Neutronium, borg
2x blue mk11 +to shield emitters
3x blue mk11 phaser

ether 8 mk11 purple phaser arrays, or 6 mk11 purple phaser arrays and 2 Hargh'peng

swapped between my cap3 covariant and the Paratrinic, seems the regeneration value is a bit irreverent with so many shield heals. that thing has the highest cap there is unless that KHG shield has higher. also a mk12 hyper [turn]x2, and a mk11 positron deflector with x2 +to shield emitters. no sets here, shouldn't NEED them.

this build couldn't harm escorts at all, couldn't do anything but heal my self and other cruisers. something is very wrong. cruisers need more dps, that's whats missing from this equation. there is no pressure from their damage over time anymore. they serve no purpose, other then healing each other


Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
More than one engineer on a premade team is reducing the strength of the team. This has been the case for well over a year now. It's not a new development because of MACO/KHG.

The game is different now than it was in S1 / S1.1. Adapt, form a team and start winning.
lol, adapt? adapt by having NO cruisers on the team, that's the conclusion to my testing. the game is broken if that's the case
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