Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Initially I played back in beta, through the first few months and eventually quit due to lack of content, but during that time I had leveled my federation and KDF tactical characters to the max level and gotten fairly proficient with both of them on the ground. Coming back after a friend asked me to join him when the game went F2P, I've noticed virtually all of the tactical ground tricks, abilities and redeeming qualities have been either broken or nerfed.

This might be fuzzy, but I remember Rally Cry being an 80% group heal. I remember Overwatch actually proccing exposes on enemies that fired on your group and being a decent damage reducer. I remember suppressing fire slowing enemies to a crawl. Grenades seem a bit more useful now, but they share a cooldown with my KDF honor guard rifle's alt-fire, which makes either my rifle or my kit's skills marginally useless. Tactical initiative no longer resets cooldowns, and cannot be used on allies.

How do we deal with this now? I feel very useless in ground STFs, as the lack of reliable damage mitigation, spotty cover (Especially Cure ground), and high aggro generation from utilizing the one useful trick I have managed to salvage (Ambush + Pulsewave net at point blank using fireteam X) results in very frequent, often near-instant deaths. I've got points in combat armor, PSG, and damage attenuation, and last I checked, Tacticals were tanky on the ground. We have draw fire kits and everything. I understand engineers and science have, and should have their advantages, but I always felt they did, between having a bazillion pets or the ability to chain-CC someone continually for 30 or more seconds.

It's not so bad until you look at fights agaisnt Rebecca Simmons or Armek, where there's little to no cover, the boss hits for half or more your total EHP, and you have no mitigation or sustain. Hypos help for all of 3 seconds, but the long cooldown prevent them from keeping you alive any longer. I remember being able to Rally cry, hypo, init, rally cry again, and then shield charge, and stay alive somewhat effectively.

Help? What do, general PVE?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-23-2012, 04:25 PM
Tacs are not tanky on the ground, and haven't been since season 4. They have no heals other than rally cry. They are good at dealing damage. But they are squishy. Tactical initiative got nerfed, but the Devs have said that this is in line with that was originally intended. It doesn't get used directly on other players, but I believe that it now has an AOE effect on teammates. So does motion accelerator.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-26-2012, 07:40 AM
So thats it?
Were fracked unless we have Sci&Eng Bos with 2 shield/med heals on us?

So I better kiss my physical augmentation armor good bye for good then and get the tankiest stuff I can find?
Tips appreciated, as I was this close to spending precious D on crafting the XI armor.

BTW, Im in the same boat as OP.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-26-2012, 09:18 AM
Yep - I'm in the same boat - even respecced for max shields and DPS - got the full M.A.C.O. Mk XI set and my shields are toast in one blast (even on 'normal' STFs) - I do great damage (specced into grenades too) but my survivability is terrible - best I can do is carry lots of hypos and shield batteries.

Haven't even attempted the ground 'Elite' STFs 'cause if tacs are this weak in the normal ones all I'll end up doing is respawning a lot and wasting endless regenerators...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-26-2012, 09:20 AM
On the ground, Tacticals are damage dealers. Get the Omega ground armor and shield, they will eventually be buffed to be more accommodating to the needs of a Tactical (25% Dodge Chance on the shields for example). Just focus on dealing damage and surviving.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-27-2012, 09:34 PM
I understand this, but this is going to sound stupid, what if I don't want to be a squishy damage dealer? In space, I can fly whatever ship I please, with whatever BoFF abilities I please. On the ground, I have the option to take several different kits which, frankly, all do the same thing. "Minor damage buff x4, minor weak attack grenade x1" or "Team damage buff, self damage buff, weak grenade x2" or an "imperfect personal cloak, a decent long cooldown one-shot buff, and melee skills."

Way back, the operative kit was nerfed because a friend of mine and I, and several others, discovered we could decloak, snipe, switch weapons, snipe again, and two shot most people in PVP. Both weapon hotswapping and the cloak itself were nerfed, and now this technique is not usable, as the element of suprise cannot be exploited. Speaking of exploits, our numerous AoE expose skills (Rally cry, Target Optics) are no longer highly effective.

Melee's worthless, too.

Sci officers can switch between heals and CC, engineers between debuffs, pets, and repair kits, and have a great degree of diversity that simply is not present in tactical kits. I often find myself wearing energy dampening or polyalloy weave armor to prevent being killed in two hits, but this hardly seems to have any effect. Is it worth switching for a measly 5% damage bonus, or an unreliable critical damage bonus, seeing as I am not designed to survive combat anyway?

Is it too much to ask for, I don't know, a shock trooper kit that contains something like an "Adrenal Stimulant" self-only healing ability to give sustain in extended ground combat? I wouldn't mind giving up ambush for this, for example. The problem, STFs in particular, is simply that bad. In an Armek tactics thread I read earlier today, the suggestion involved having your tactical officers 'stand and look pretty', which while I am certainly good at doing (I'm an Orion), I do not find this enjoyable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-28-2012, 05:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaFury View Post
I understand this, but this is going to sound stupid, what if I don't want to be a squishy damage dealer?
Then roll another character or learn to use cover.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-28-2012, 07:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaFury View Post
Sci officers can switch between heals and CC, engineers between debuffs, pets, and repair kits, and have a great degree of diversity that simply is not present in tactical kits. I often find myself wearing energy dampening or polyalloy weave armor to prevent being killed in two hits, but this hardly seems to have any effect. Is it worth switching for a measly 5% damage bonus, or an unreliable critical damage bonus, seeing as I am not designed to survive combat anyway?
Tactical also has access to CC skills and kits. Fire Team has only two damage skills and all of the skills on the kit have passive CC or debuffs attached to them. Grenade Satchel has both CC and damage grenades available (Smoke Grenade buffs defence and stealth, Stun Grenade stuns the target, Photon Greandes are all damage, Plasma Grenade is damage and a DoT), Operative has buffs and Physical attacks (melee sucks but Lunge and Sweeping Strikes don't, Ambush is just so useful I'd take a less effective kit to use it), Security Protocol has debuffs and damage skills (Suppressing Fire is one of the nastiest skills available to any of the classes and is all debuff) and those are just the kits I can remember.
Survivability shouldn't really be an issue, Tac's can't take big hits like Sci or Eng can but they don't have to because they can kill things so much faster. The only thing is, if you've been away a while you'll have to get used to the Tac play style as they're very fragile if not handled properly but when they are handled correctly they can be both tough kills and death incarnate on the ground.

If you feel they should be tougher and have more survivability get yourself an Operative kit, a Pulsewave rifle and head to the nearest NPC or unsuspecting Fed in Otha and buff under Stealth and fire the pulsewave whilst under the decloak damage buff; you can one shot a whole group if they're stood together and they'll be able to do nothing to defend against it. That goes for both players and NPCs (good players won't stand together though so it'll rarely work on them).
If you want to be really nasty then you can demolish anything with your Fire Team kit. Root, Snare, DR debuff and damage debuff all on the same skill with a short cooldown (Suppressing Fire). It can also be used with Ambush (+150% All Damage with a stealth buff), Battle Strategies (+20% all energy damage) and Plasma Grenade (if it crits it'll one shot a player, otherwise it'll just prevent there shields from recharging whilst also inflicting a decent DoT. Works jus tas well against NPCs). Tacs are nasty on the ground because they have a combination of damage and CC, they just focus more on the Damage as Sci focusses more on CC than damage and Engineers tend towards pets like the Drones, Turrets and Mortars for indirect damage than CC.

If you want a more tanky damage dealer then I'd look at a Sci character; they can deal good damage numbers (you'll want a Physicist kit for direct damage, Analyst for AoE CC and Exposes) but have the option to be all but invincible with the Medic kits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaFury
Is it too much to ask for, I don't know, a shock trooper kit that contains something like an "Adrenal Stimulant" self-only healing ability to give sustain in extended ground combat? I wouldn't mind giving up ambush for this, for example. The problem, STFs in particular, is simply that bad. In an Armek tactics thread I read earlier today, the suggestion involved having your tactical officers 'stand and look pretty', which while I am certainly good at doing (I'm an Orion), I do not find this enjoyable.
Armek is one of those places where one class has an advantage over another but it's not like Tacs are useless, Science has always been better at tanking the big bosses because they hit so hard and they have access to so many self buffs and heals..IMO the current Armek is just not that fun and I despise the Cure ground mission anyway so avoid it like the plague but Tacs are hardly useless there, Sci is just more useful.
Tactical only looks less useful in comparison because the other classes also have access to damage so they can do pretty much anything without a Tac but it'll take longer, it's far from perfect but at the same time having someone actually healing the Tac helps but it's not something that happens often.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-28-2012, 07:44 AM
@KitsuneRommel: I'd love to, but a lack of character slots prevents me from rerolling eng right now, not to mention I've already ground hundreds of STFs. It's just that two years ago this wasn't a problem, and I despise rerolling simply to deal with changes in the metagame. Cover, well, it's great when it exists but cannot be relied on. I don't think it's too much to ask, honestly, one has to be alive to deal their 'mad DPS', after all.

@Miltis: Yes, 'damage tanking' has been effective, I suppose. Fire team in particular allows me to one-shot whole groups of NPCs with my pulsewave rifle, which is undeniably fast but certainly not safe. I guess I just long for a time where ground combat was slower paced and you had more time to consider what you were doing. Thanks for actually having a constructive response, however.

As for Armek, yes, I'd avoid him but there's only 6 STFs in the entire game, and someone's got to get those EDCs somehow.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-28-2012, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NovaFury View Post
@KitsuneRommel: I'd love to, but a lack of character slots prevents me from rerolling eng right now, not to mention I've already ground hundreds of STFs. It's just that two years ago this wasn't a problem, and I despise rerolling simply to deal with changes in the metagame. Cover, well, it's great when it exists but cannot be relied on. I don't think it's too much to ask, honestly, one has to be alive to deal their 'mad DPS', after all.
I have to admit that after gearing up a sci and engineer I almost forgot how to play a tactical. On normal STFs you can silly Rambo stuff like wiping out a full group with a single pulsewave blast but on elite you have to be more careful. If you have the MACO set you will have an extra shield recharge which is really useful combined with your normal LARGE hypo or shield charge. To play a tactical you have to be more... tactical.

I'm not really sure what else to say. STFs are a group effort.
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