Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
01-26-2012, 01:40 PM
Quote:
the galaxy is the largest the most power battleship star fleet has ever created, it was designed wile the federation was fighting 3 wars, and it has yet to be topped by anything canon or soft canon.
Excuse me? The Sovereign is vastly superior to the Galaxy in a combat role. The Galaxy was never designed as a battleship, it was designed as a long-range explorer. You don't put a thousand crew and their families on a battleship. Even in TNG, it was stated that the Galaxy was not designed for combat, and it was shown numerous times that it's combat capabilities were rather lacking, and pre-Generations/Dominion War refit, she had NUMEROUS phaser blind spots.

The Dominion War refit Galaxy received numerous upgrades in both it's phaser fire coverage and it's hull armor (You can see this most evidently on the back of the "neck" in the SoA battle scenes).

Considering it's figurehead role as the fleet flagship (Like the Constitution and Ambassador before it. One unit per "fleet", 12-13 total units), the Galaxy was a good ship for what it was designed for--long range exploration with the ability to defend itself should the need arise, but it wasn't a combat ship. It was pretty much what the Nova is, on a grander scale. A science ship with teeth. The Galaxy still has the title of the largest ship Starfleet has ever built in the canon (By volume, not length), followed closely behind by the Nebula, but it's certainly not the most powerful.

The Sovereign on the other hand uses more modern weapons systems--IE, quantum torpedoes, and in it's Nemesis-refit, it's got an absurd amount of torpedo launchers. It has pretty much no phaser blindspots at 0-elevation, and the phasers it mounts are said to be of Mk X+ type, which is a Starbase-grade phaser..The hull is visibly much better armored then the Galaxy, and it's entire hull form lends itself to a faster ship with lesser frontal area, making it a better offensive platform.

You can seriously tell the Federation has been ramping up it's firepower since the Galaxies were first laid down. The ships are starting to take on a much more combat-oriented "feel". The Akira, Sabre, Steamrunner, Norway, Defiant, refit Lakota, the Galaxy-upgrades, the Sovereign, all show a Federation that's starting to realize it faces serious threats at every turn and it needs the firepower to protect itself. Wolf 359 was obviously an eye-opener.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
01-26-2012, 03:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pococurante
Agreed. In the hands of my engineer it is often what keeps my elite stf pugs alive and winning optionals.
Haven't seen my pvp vids I assume.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
01-27-2012, 01:56 PM
say what....?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
01-27-2012, 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ramp4ge View Post
Excuse me? The Sovereign is vastly superior to the Galaxy in a combat role. The Galaxy was never designed as a battleship, it was designed as a long-range explorer. You don't put a thousand crew and their families on a battleship. Even in TNG, it was stated that the Galaxy was not designed for combat, and it was shown numerous times that it's combat capabilities were rather lacking, and pre-Generations/Dominion War refit, she had NUMEROUS phaser blind spots.

The Dominion War refit Galaxy received numerous upgrades in both it's phaser fire coverage and it's hull armor (You can see this most evidently on the back of the "neck" in the SoA battle scenes).

Considering it's figurehead role as the fleet flagship (Like the Constitution and Ambassador before it. One unit per "fleet", 12-13 total units), the Galaxy was a good ship for what it was designed for--long range exploration with the ability to defend itself should the need arise, but it wasn't a combat ship. It was pretty much what the Nova is, on a grander scale. A science ship with teeth. The Galaxy still has the title of the largest ship Starfleet has ever built in the canon (By volume, not length), followed closely behind by the Nebula, but it's certainly not the most powerful.

The Sovereign on the other hand uses more modern weapons systems--IE, quantum torpedoes, and in it's Nemesis-refit, it's got an absurd amount of torpedo launchers. It has pretty much no phaser blindspots at 0-elevation, and the phasers it mounts are said to be of Mk X+ type, which is a Starbase-grade phaser..The hull is visibly much better armored then the Galaxy, and it's entire hull form lends itself to a faster ship with lesser frontal area, making it a better offensive platform.

You can seriously tell the Federation has been ramping up it's firepower since the Galaxies were first laid down. The ships are starting to take on a much more combat-oriented "feel". The Akira, Sabre, Steamrunner, Norway, Defiant, refit Lakota, the Galaxy-upgrades, the Sovereign, all show a Federation that's starting to realize it faces serious threats at every turn and it needs the firepower to protect itself. Wolf 359 was obviously an eye-opener.
here's a clue for all you sovereign fans, just because the crew went to a new ship that has a higher special effect budget doesn't mean its better. all your gut feeling are not fact, what has been seen on screan is. the sovereign has never been observed doing anything a galaxy couldn't have done, besides travel at a higher maximum warp. you have convinced yourself a ship less then 10 years newer and less then half the size of a galaxy is somehow more powerful then one. doesn't that seem a little impossible?

the enterprise D was never outfitted as a battleship, like i said its the flagship. its supposed to be decedent and impressive, an embodiment of federation ideals. there was a cardasian war going on for the first half of TNG, the D never went down to that war zone until after it was over because its role is not that of a battleship, and putting families in a war zone would be insane. through out the first half of tng the D just flew up and down the romulan neutral zone looking impressive and posturing. it would not have hung around if a shooting war erupted, no mater how powerful it was.

everyone assumes every galaxy class is a replica of the D, that not backed up by canon any more then half the claims you make about the sovereign. its possible that the fist batch of 6 galaxy's were originally of the decedent variety, it was implied the yamato and odyssey had familys aboard. those 6 are the only ones that exist according to Gene Roddenberry. a lot of things about star trek changed after he died, namely ds9 and a more realistic and imperfect portrayal of the federation, along with starfleet acting a bit more like a military. the feeling people have about the galaxy class seem to be stuck in the utopian Roddenberry version of trek, instead of what came after. its like you all think the galaxy is the only thing that didn't change.

theres no evidence they were all like the D, especially the ones serving as battleships during the dominion war. the DS9 tech manual even says there were 65% empty, how could it function like that if the design wasn't extremely modular? that tells me they could be setup as a military command ship just as easily as they could be full of families and science labs. the whole full of families thing is the exception not the rule, the dangers of exploration are so great that they would only chance filling a ship as large and powerful as a galaxy with civilians. it wasn't just family members on the D ether, it was full of delegations from dozens of worlds, it was a diplomatic flagship more then a tactical one.

blind spots? not designed for combat? how silly, it was designed and built during 3 wars. the only blindspots it has with its main arrays, the only arrays that mater, are dead aft behind the neck, and right below and behind the secondary hull. a slight maneuver would put a target in the big arrays firing arc, or it could just destroy the target actually small enough to fit in those blind spots with the 4 small arrays that cover those blind spots. the sovereign's main array blind spots are enormous by comparison.

the sovereign's main arrays are also less then then half the size of the galaxy's. length maters, a short array has less emitters, and since each emitter adds firepower to a full array shot, the galaxy's most powerful shot is more then twice as powerful as the sovereign's. the sovereign's emitters would have to be more then twice as powerful then the galaxy's emitters to match a galaxy's firepower, that's not possible for such a mature technology, and even if it were there's nothing stopping a refit of a galaxy to equip it with the same emitters.

the akira has a longer phaser array then the sovereign's longest, and more torpedo launchers, by your logic shouldn't it be more powerful then a sovereign? its even a smaller ship! its a perfect fit to your reasoning. if you look at each ship's phaser arrays the sovereign's arrays look really thin in comparison. that could mean more of the hardware is internalized, or it could mean the galaxy's arrays have double stacked emitters. cant be sure what it means, but it cant help the firepower discrepancy.

the sovereign has many torpedo launchers, but they are tiny compared to the 2 huge ones the galaxy has that can launch 10+ in an instant, and more before they have to reload. the sovereign launchers can burst about 3 at most, and half of them just 1 before reloading. the nemisis battle would have seen a lot more torpedoes fired if this was not the case, it was fighting as hard as it could.

all these ships you think had a more combat feel were all on the drawing board before wolf 359 and the dominion war, they were all sorely needed because the majority of the federation fleet was decades out of date, and the federation suffered losses it proboly shouldn't have in the mid century wars against the cardasians, tzenkethi and tholians. they were all going to be good combat capable classes, as well as good general purpose ships. they served well as a result in the dominion war and against additional borg attacks. wolf 359 just proved the tactically proficient ships they were building were needed.

the sovereign was a replacement for the excelsior, that is a quote from one of the senior producers of startrek on trek BBS a few years ago. its not a replacement for a ship 2.4 times larger then it is, that has a space frame life of +100 years, and less then a decade old. the sovereign has its place and its purpose, its a heavy cruiser in the same style as kirk's ship, they just went to the crew having a ship like that instead of having a hulking behemoth, a lot of fans hated the galaxy because it was so different from kirks ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
01-27-2012, 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jg07
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Perfect World Entertainment Community Rules and Policies . ~Askray
I lol'd.

Thanks Askray.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
01-27-2012, 06:31 PM
Not this boring crappy Galaxy-vs-Sovereign argument again.

Galaxy-R needs two things:

Universal Ensign Boff
Universal console slot


Then it's perfectly balanced.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
01-27-2012, 06:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forgotten-Nemesis View Post
Not this boring crappy Galaxy-vs-Sovereign argument again.

Galaxy-R needs two things:

Universal Ensign Boff
Universal console slot


Then it's perfectly balanced.
I do have to admit, Galaxy-R needs love. It is completely useless in all PvP sense.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
01-27-2012, 07:05 PM
Oh boy..Lots of assuming and ignoring of the canon there..Where to begin?

Quote:
here's a clue for all you sovereign fans, just because the crew went to a new ship that has a higher special effect budget doesn't mean its better.
Because we've only seen 1 Sovereign, the Enterprise-E. We've seen at least 6 canon Galaxies besides the Enterprise-D. And every time we've seen the Enterprise-E, it is engaging in combat. It directly engaged the Borg, shrugging off a shot that we saw destroy several other ships onscreen at the same time. The same type of hit "cut into" the Enterprise-D and removed a rather significant portion of it's hull. The Enterprise-D's shields were absolutely worthless against the Borg, and yet the Enterprise-E sustained at least 2, possibly 3 or more with no visible or otherwise mentioned damage. That alone shows a vastly superior shielding system to the Galaxy-class. We've been told the Sovereign has a "regenerative" shield system, which is again, something the Galaxy does not. The hull is significantly better protected then the Galaxy both in form and materials. One can LOOK at it and see re-enforcement in areas the Galaxy simply doesn't have. Armament-wise, again, one can simply look at the model. The torpedo armament on the Sovereign is vastly superior to the Galaxy. The Galaxy has 3 torpedo tubes. 1 fore, 1 aft, one on the trailing edge of the saucer, unusable when the saucer is docked. The Sovereign has at least 7 visible on the Nemesis render, excluding the quantum turret. The "Fact Files" also says that the Sovereign has 2 more quantum tubes that we don't see on the shooting render. Phaser-wise, the Sovereign again outclasses the Galaxy. Again, we're looking at Type X+ phasers (Some sources have called them Type XII), which is a Starbase-grade weapon...

So..

Sovereign's faster
Sovereign's more maneuverable (As seen in Nemesis, she's very agile)
Sovereign's faster at warp velocities
Sovereign's better armed
Sovereign's better protected

Quote:
the enterprise D was never outfitted as a battleship, like i said its the flagship. its supposed to be decedent and impressive, an embodiment of federation ideals. there was a cardasian war going on for the first half of TNG, the D never went down to that war zone until after it was over because its role is not that of a battleship
Funny, because the Yamato was identical to the Enterprise-D. The Odyssey also had families onboard and they were evacuated to DS9 before the ship went thru the wormhole. So it's pretty easy to assume that all of the Galaxies had a lot of family space and diplomatic facilities. Again, not something you'd find on a "battleship". Galaxy was, again, a large exploration vessel with the ability to defend itself against significant threats, not to go off on a major offensive. Do you honestly believe the Enterprise-D would've fared better against a threat such as the Scimitar? Enterprise-D was well known to barely be able to handle a single D'Deridex, let alone something like the Scimitar. And the Enterprise-E held it's own until it's weapons were exhausted--which was an obvious plot device.

Quote:
everyone assumes every galaxy class is a replica of the D, that not backed up by canon any more then half the claims you make about the sovereign.
Because according to the canon, every Galaxy was pretty much identical to the Enterprise-D, or inferior. We know the Yamato was virtually identical to the Enterprise-D, we know the Odyssey was virtually identical to the Enterprise-D, there's absolutely nothing in the canon to suggest that the other Galaxy-class ships were superior combat-wise to the Enterprise-D. It's a joke to even assume that.

Quote:
theres no evidence they were all like the D, especially the ones serving as battleships during the dominion war.
There was also nothing to suggest that they weren't all like the Enterprise-D, especially since the ones we saw pre-Dominion War WERE exactly like the Enterprise-D..

Quote:
the DS9 tech manual even says there were 65% empty, how could it function like that if the design wasn't extremely modular? that tells me they could be setup as a military command ship just as easily as they could be full of families and science labs.
Or one could think more realistically. We know Starfleet's ship production went into overdrive when the Dominion War started. We know of at least 2, possibly 3 Galaxy-class ships lost before the war. It's entirely possible and extremely likely that the "empty" vessels during the Dominion War were rushed out of the shipyards for their firepower and never outfitted with the family, diplomatic and scientific facilities. Very similar to the way the Britanic was requisitioned as a hospital ship before she was outfitted as a passenger liner. When you need the big guns, you roll the ship out as soon as it has the capabilities to use those big guns..And that's probably why you see "empty" Galaxies..

Quote:
the whole full of families thing is the exception not the rule
No it isn't. Enterprise-D, Yamato, Odyssey, all 3 had families onboard. Even older ships like the Saratoga that Sisko served on had families aboard..It's a rather common thing on Federation ships of that era..

Quote:
blind spots? not designed for combat? how silly, it was designed and built during 3 wars.
The episodes where Geordi goes back and has little chats with Leah Brahms' hologram (Leah Brahms was one of the Galaxy's chief designers) never mentioned the ship being designed for combat..Picard states on numerous occasions that it wasn't designed for combat..


Quote:
a slight maneuver would put a target in the big arrays firing arc, or it could just destroy the target actually small enough to fit in those blind spots with the 4 small arrays that cover those blind spots. the sovereign's main array blind spots are enormous by comparison.
And yet, a gigantic creature was able to attach itself to the back of the Enterprise-D's neck and it was completely unable to defend itself at that point. Interesting, eh? That's a pretty big blindspot. There's also a blindspot aft of the saucer's rear trailing edge that was later addressed with the arrays atop the nacelles--which is kinda' stupid in itself..Who puts weapons ontop of your extremely vulnerable engines...?

The Sovereign had a blindspot that was resolved with the "Nemesis" refit. The addition of the arrays on the trailing edge of the ventral saucer fixed that, and anything that WAS in the blindspot of the pre-refit Sovereign was well within range of the ventral aft torpedo tubes..So it probably would've been dead anyway..

Quote:
the sovereign's main arrays are also less then then half the size of the galaxy's. length maters, a short array has less emitters, and since each emitter adds firepower to a full array shot, the galaxy's most powerful shot is more then twice as powerful as the sovereign's.
Where is it stated that a longer array has more firepower? A longer array simply gives a better field of fire over a wider area. Defiant's cannons are a single emitter each and are vastly superior to even the Galaxy's armament. Hell, even the Defiant's phaser turret is a single emitter and it's still powerful enough to cause significant damage to a major Klingon warship..We've seen onscreen that even shorter arrays, like the arrays on the ventral section of the engineering hull or on the nacelle pylons, dishing out a lot of damage. There's nothing in the canon stating that a longer strip is more powerful. And there's plenty to dispute that..

Quote:
the sovereign's emitters would have to be more then twice as powerful then the galaxy's emitters to match a galaxy's firepower, that's not possible for such a mature technology
You get the Sovereign with improved emitters and more power to throw at those emitters and you get a more powerful weapons system. Not sure how that's even remotely difficult to understand..We know the Nebula has virtually identical dorsal and ventral arrays to the Galaxy. Gonna' tell me that a Nebula has greater firepower then a Sovereign, too?

Quote:
the akira has a longer phaser array then the sovereign's longest, and more torpedo launchers, by your logic shouldn't it be more powerful then a sovereign?
Akira has a lower-grade phaser system (Type X to Sovereign's Type X+ or XII depending on the source), and being a smaller ship would have less power to push into those phasers, so no, phaser-wise, an Akira would not be superior to a Galaxy or a Sovereign. The only comparison is that it's got the same type of emitters as a Galaxy--Type X.

Quote:
the sovereign has many torpedo launchers, but they are tiny compared to the 2 huge ones the galaxy has that can launch 10+ in an instant
And the Fact Files state that in burst-mode, the Sovereign's can launch 12. Also, I'm not sure what pictures you've seen, but the launchers on the Sovereign are massive...

http://www.ditl.org/gpns/GSovereignPhotons3.jpg

Also, burst fire seems to be being replaced by pulse-fire, such as those seen on the Akira. Could be just a settings change, could be a measure to conserve ammunition, but whatever it is, we see a lot of ships doing that. But back to the Fact Files and Sternbach, both informing us of a 12-round burst possible from Sovereign's tubes.

Quote:
the nemisis battle would have seen a lot more torpedoes fired if this was not the case, it was fighting as hard as it could.
We actually see relatively few torpedoes fired in Nemesis, despite the ship having completely depleted it's reserve. So that tells us that a LOT of torpedoes were fired in a very short period of time (That we don't see. We don't see the entire battle, just short clips), or that the Sovereign doesn't carry many torpedoes. For a ship with at least 7 tubes, that doesn't seem very likely at all, does it? So the more logical assumption is that the E-E put out a lot of lead in a very short amount of time. Given an Akira's full forward volly of 44, I don't see how that's even in debate..

Wow I filled the post? Continued in next!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
01-27-2012, 07:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
The game's Galaxy is weak compared to the show's? Anyone remember the USS Odyssey getting take out by 3 Jem attack ships?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzARkU5l2JE
During the operation, the Odyssey, along with the USS Mekong and USS Orinoco, engaged three Jem'Hadar attack ships. It was quickly discovered that the Odyssey's shields were ineffective against the Jem'Hadar's phased polaron beams

later during the war ..obviously ..the shields were altered to defend against the weapons as if jem hadar were firing normal weapons.

that's why you dont see galaxys get ownt after the first conflict..

nice try though
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
01-27-2012, 07:06 PM
Quote:
all these ships you think had a more combat feel were all on the drawing board before wolf 359
Any proof of that? And please don't give me registries. Even respected sites like Ex Astris Scientia attribute the Akira, Norway, Steamrunner and Sabre as post-Wolf 359 buildups in the fleets firepower. So was the Defiant. We KNOW Starfleet went gun-happy after Wolf 359 because we know that's when the Defiant was developed. It's certainly not hard to imagine that there were other projects besides the Defiant, designed to bolster Starfleet's firepower. The performance of the ships in Wolf 359 compared to the performance of those at Sector 001 and the Typhon fleet show that their thinking was correct and more firepower was needed. The Cube at Wolf 359 was completely undamaged..The Cube at 001 was so heavily damaged that it's power grid was in flux and Data reported heavy damage to it's outer hull. The rest of this I think we're on the same page on. Post-Wolf 359, Starfleet saw a need for more and bigger guns, thus we got the Defiant, the Akira, Sabre, Steamrunner, Norway, and, ta'dah, the Sovereign..

Quote:
the sovereign was a replacement for the excelsior, that is a quote from one of the senior producers of startrek on trek BBS a few years ago.
That's a quote you're mis-reading. The Sovereign was designed (as in it's 3D studio model, not the in-universe ship) to have the same kind of lines as the Excelsior and to represent a similar "spirit". It was the Excelsior's replacement in spirit, not in-universe. Nowhere is it stated that in-universe, the Sovereign was designed to fill the role of the Excelsior. That'd be asinine, since they already have the Nebula doing that just fine. We see that with the Melbourne. The Nebula was the in-universe replacement for the Excelsior. Also, nobody claimed the Sovereign was the replacement for the Galaxy, since true, a Sovereign simply cannot contain all the labs, all the science gear, all the diplomatic facilities that a Galaxy can. But nobody has ever said that the Sovereign is a practical replacement for the Galaxy fleet-wise. It's, again, an effort to bolster fleet-wide fire superiority in a Federation that is obviously moving toward a more militant outlook on the universe. Bigger guns, better protection. The Sovereign represents that new philosophy better then the Galaxy. That's not to say the Galaxy has no place in Starfleet, and that's not to say the Galaxy isn't a front-line unit anymore, it's simply not the born-and-bread combat ship the Sovereign is. But the sad thing is, the Nebula is a more efficient science ship with minimal reductions in combat capabilities. Hell, a Nebula with a mission pod is a larger ship then even a Galaxy, volume-wise.

"Enhanced Deterrence Explorer". A deterrence in the same way as a Boomer. "Hopefully we'll never have to use this, but if we need it, we got it!, while still having the basic exploration and diplomatic capabilities required of any major Starfleet vessel. Hell, even an Intrepid has those basic features, and it's far from a "large" ship. Even the little Novas are full-blown science ship while still having a decent (for it's size) armament package in a neat little package..
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