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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 91
02-07-2012, 09:43 PM
First off, some clarification is in order. We are talking about 2 different things. When I say "SCI" I was never just talking about sci vessels exclusively . Unless I specifically say "SCI VESSELS" I mean sci playstyle. But that's my fault for the confusion. The original poster brought up sci officers/skills/ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
I never said it was wrong,
Well, you are worried about it being buffed too much and that would be synonymous with making CC king so not sure how you can separate the two. If you think its wrong to buff sci by default you must think its wrong for cc to be king.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
I just don't feel that Sci is weak.
That's fine but that does not invalidate all the other people who feel different then you do.

Also when I say "SCI" I mean everything Sci unless I specifically say "sci vessels" I'm talking about sci officers/skills on a sci ships, you are talking about a engi on a sci ship. We are talking about two different things but that's my fault.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
You keep asking me to prove that it isn't yet I'm not asking for a buff you are
First, I have not "kept" asking you to prove anything, I merely asked to see a vid "one time" of you in action because I felt thoroughly impressed you feel there is absolutely no room at all for even a tiny or slight buff. It perked my curiosity but never did I say prove you are correct.

And at this point, I realize we are talking about 2 different things, you are talking exclusively about "sci vessels" I am talking about sci officers or sci skill tree, as in someone who plays a sci purist. Out of all that I'm sure there are things that could be buffed to appease the people who feel unsatisfied.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
so convince me (and whoever else that needs to be convinced) that Science is weak.
Why would I want to do that? I have acknowledged several times that it may very well be the case that its not weak and I have no interest to argue semantics. There is a growing trend of people who feel left behind in the "sci department" What matters is people having fun. What you think is fine another thinks is weak. It's all a matter of taste.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
That's not a Science ship problem.
I'm not "exclusively" only talking about "sci vessels" in a group setting like you are, I was talking about CC/debuff skills in general. I'm talking about a playstyle here. As in a sci officer in a sci ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
So far I've not seen anything other than a couple of people trying to make an Escort of a Science ship complaining it's not working well.
I have seen lots of people who could care less about the damage and are trying to play debuffer/CC but are not satisfied with it. I see a recurring theme of people feeling this way and I don't think buffing up CC a tid bit is going to break anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
Actually I'm levelling an Engineer at the moment in a Science ship (currently at Commander 3) and I'm finding it fine. Not much slower than an Escort but faster than a Cruiser, it seems fine to me.
It could be your entire perception is from your specific builds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
Again the playstyle of a Science ship isn't necessarily to do damage so why keep asking for more damage as well as the CC?
Ah nowhere did I say anything about increasing the damage. I have only commented about the people who were wanting to buff CC a tiny bit Listen, I'm talking about people who "are not satisfied with CC playstle and feel it needs a buff for the lack of damage/tankage. If there are people wanting to increase their damage then I agree with you, the damage should be left alone. We already have a Tac officer and we already have escorts.

I'm saying we should support the people who want to buff CC skills.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
I don't do solo play in this game,
If you only exclusively play one aspect of playstyle then your claims "could" be irrelevant. Maybe the people that run into problems are people that are forced to solo half the time or choose to. In fact being in a group is as different than night and day. You can sit there all day long and tell people their fine but all your arguments are irrelevant because some solo half the time.

What if its the case it needs to be nerfed being overpowered solo? Well, you might not have a clue because your entire argument is only based on your preferred playstyle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
Two Science ships working together are already nasty,
Maybe one sci ship/officer is gimp in a group. Maybe one is gimp solo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
making them stronger is making them bait for a nerf..
This is a easy concern to fix. All you would need to do is add residual returns based on how many CC effects and Debuffs there are. You could make residual returns on how long an effect lasted based on the number of players attacking a specific target or the amount of damage being put out. I can think of 5 different way to scale it off the top of my head.


Side note: On page 6 post #54 you said to Kreael who had a legitimate concern
Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
Science ships are good regardless of whether they're in a group.
And in #90 you said to me

Quote:
Originally Posted by Militis View Post
I don't do solo play in this game, it's pretty much exclusively STFs so always group ,
I really don't know what to say other than that is not really fair to Kreal or any other person with a legitimate concern. Would you like it if you had a issue with group balance and a player that does exclusive solo came along to try and refute you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 92
02-08-2012, 03:38 AM
Quote:
Well, you are worried about it being buffed too much and that would be synonymous with making CC king so not sure how you can separate the two. If you think its wrong to buff sci by default you must think its wrong for cc to be king.
I don't feel that it's wrong for CC to be king, I just feel that it's already not far from there.


Quote:
Also when I say "SCI" I mean everything Sci unless I specifically say "sci vessels" I'm talking about sci officers/skills on a sci ships, you are talking about a engi on a sci ship. We are talking about two different things but that's my fault.
Science's only real problem with the skill tree is that it's still very expensive to spec for multiple high end skills and there are no passives like Engineering an Tactical skill grant.
I'd also question anyone who feels that Science as a class is weak, they have some of the most powerful skills available to any class. Whether it's Scattering Field for the big hull resistance buff, Science Fleet and it's retarded amount of shield resistance (33%? Really?), Sensor Scan (don't forget the Sensor Officer DOff for the damage debuff too) or even Photonic Fleet which is a nice little damage buff for a Science ship. I'd not call any of those weak but like much of Science they're infinitely better in a group where the resistances and debuffs can be capitalised on.

Quote:
I have seen lots of people who could care less about the damage and are trying to play debuffer/CC but are not satisfied with it. I see a recurring theme of people feeling this way and I don't think buffing up CC a tid bit is going to break anything.
Then what needs to be buffed? I clearly disagree strongly but no one's said 'X skill is weak and needs to be buffed' or 'Y skill needs fixing because it's useless' and instead keep repeating the mantra that Science needs a buff so enlighten me, which skills are ripe for a buff?

Quote:
I'm not "exclusively" only talking about "sci vessels" in a group setting like you are, I was talking about CC/debuff skills in general. I'm talking about a playstyle here. As in a sci officer in a sci ship.
But in order for the game to not be completely borked this setting also has to be taken into account. One science ship by itself isn't a problem but put two or three of them together and they get very nasty very quickly and that has to be considered too. And even though I mentioned Science vessels that goes for Sci/ Sci too as they can be the worth with the Captain ability debuff they have available.

And just as an FYI, my main character is a Science officer in a Nebula or Sol RSV, depending on my mood.

Quote:
Why would I want to do that? I have acknowledged several times that it may very well be the case that its not weak and I have no interest to argue semantics. There is a growing trend of people who feel left behind in the "sci department" What matters is people having fun. What you think is fine another thinks is weak. It's all a matter of taste.
OK then, just tell me what you feel is weak. I clearly don't see this weakness and yet you say that surely there's some room for a buff. So, which abilities need, or may need a buff?

I clearly don't agree with these people, whoever they are yet these people who aren't having fun because Science may be a little UP haven't given any details on what may be weak. I can tell you all day why I think it's fine but if my opinion is a matter of taste and potentially irrelevant due to my preferred playstyle and they've not given any details regarding why they aren't having fun then why should anyone listen to them?

Quote:
It could be your entire perception is from your specific builds.
I've tried many different builds in Science ships and only settled on what I use because it fits my playstyle. From a Tac/ RSV running TBR3 to an Engineer/ DSSV with mostly heals I settled on holds and drains because they suit my playstyle. With the exception of the useless skills like Energy Syphon I think I've run all but every skill in many combinations and despite some being weaker than other they all seemed viable.
I may run a specific build now but I used many different BOff layouts across all the T5 ships before settling on what I use now; I didn't just use one setup and never look again, I've actually tried all those setups.

Quote:
Ah nowhere did I say anything about increasing the damage. I have only commented about the people who were wanting to buff CC a tiny bit Listen, I'm talking about people who "are not satisfied with CC playstle and feel it needs a buff for the lack of damage/tankage. If there are people wanting to increase their damage then I agree with you, the damage should be left alone. We already have a Tac officer and we already have escorts.

I'm saying we should support the people who want to buff CC skills.
Again, which skills may be in need of a buff? From what I've seen they all do what they say in the description and they do it fairly well, the only really useless Science skill I can think of is Energy Syphon, all the others seem to be worth the slot and in a well built setup with all the skills complementing each other the skills do exactly what they're expected to do.
Seeing as I clearly don't see it, let me know and I can go and try them out and see if I agree. I can't say fairer than that.

Also, I'll only support them if I feel they're correct and I don't. If there's a case to be made for Science receiving a buff then it's on those that want the buff to make that case rather than just receive blind support, as mentioned elsewhere in this post no one has actually offered any details on why Science is weak other than the 'CC skills may need a buff because they're too weak but I'm not sure'. How can I agree with that? Especially seeing as in solo PvE you can lock down an NPC for extended periods of time and it'll make absolutely no attempt to get away or clear the debuff, I'm just not seeing the need for a buff.

Quote:
If you only exclusively play one aspect of playstyle then your claims "could" be irrelevant. Maybe the people that run into problems are people that are forced to solo half the time or choose to. In fact being in a group is as different than night and day. You can sit there all day long and tell people their fine but all your arguments are irrelevant because some solo half the time.

What if its the case it needs to be nerfed being overpowered solo? Well, you might not have a clue because your entire argument is only based on your preferred playstyle.
For the past three days I've been levelling a new character and it's faster doing it solo so for those few days I've been solo for a couple of hours a night. Still seems fine to me and besides, as above the group content side of things does need to be considered, it's a part of the game for both PvE and PvP and shouldn't be thrown out. It shouldn't take priority over solo play but the observations of a group player are no less relevant than a solo player in a game that offers both.

And TBH no one's forced to play Solo, it's a choice. If it's a choice that's made then fine but I can think of very few reasons why someone would be forced to play solo. That doesn't mean they should be gimped there but at the same time it is a conscious choice.

Quote:
Maybe one sci ship/officer is gimp in a group. Maybe one is gimp solo.
I can think of no place that a Science officer is useless. They're good everywhere, both ground and space, at debuffing and healing. If someone honestly thinks that Science is weak then they're definitely doing something wrong; Science can do everything the other classes do better than the other classes can do Science.

Quote:
This is a easy concern to fix. All you would need to do is add residual returns based on how many CC effects and Debuffs there are. You could make residual returns on how long an effect lasted based on the number of players attacking a specific target or the amount of damage being put out. I can think of 5 different way to scale it off the top of my head.
But that also hurts Science because the skills work best as a combination; Tyken's won't drain a shield by itself but it will with Target Shields just as GW won't stop a target but GW and Target Engines or GW and EWP will, even multi class debuffs and CC like APBeta and TBR with a Tac Captain's damage buffs and DR debuff (FoMM) works best as a combination of several skills.
Science works best with multiple abilities used together and a Science Captain just adds more on top of that with their native debuffs, reducing the return based on number of active debuffs hurts the solo player too.

Quote:
And in #90 you said to me
Do you really think that after playing without a break for two years I've never played solo? I play around 90% group now with the other 10% waiting around ESD for a queue to pop. I have played solo before and do , however rarely, still. It's just that I prefer to play team oriented content but up until S5 and the revamped STFs I played 90% solo as the STFs were long enough that I couldn't play them regularly in the week. My current playstyle is a recent change, not something that's always been.

Quote:
I really don't know what to say other than that is not really fair to Kreal or any other person with a legitimate concern. Would you like it if you had a issue with group balance and a player that does exclusive solo came along to try and refute you?
I disagree with him and this is a discussion forum. If I disagree in a discussion forum can I not try to refute the argument and see what the issue is based on his response? And as above, in a game that offers both solo and group play the effect on both is important. Right now however based on the builds he posted Science or Science ship weren't the problem. Loading a slow turning Science ship up with Cannons isn't the most effective way to use them so no, I don't think it's unfair to refute his observation because he's not even making use of all a Science ships abilities so can't possibly say they're weak.

If someone wants to refute my arguments then let them, that's what forums are for. However if someone is so shy and retiring that they don't want or can't deal with any criticism then they should perhaps not post on a forum; despite this being a reasonably well behaved forum you'll still face criticism so if it's not something they can deal with they need to decide whether posting is a good idea for them. It's there choice but they also have to bare the consequences of those choices.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 93
02-09-2012, 08:04 AM
I have a Intrepid Science Ship and I can fly rings around most computers, and do decently well against other Players(I say decently cause I have never been real strong with PVP). I just started a Science Character cause my Tactical Character is capped out, and look forward to further homing my Science Ship skills.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 94
02-09-2012, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
There's only 1 VA ship of each type, and they're all Refits of T4 ships. Every other ship in the game is just a standard T5/Admiral ship. Science currently has 5 T5 ship choices: the 2 stocks, the Refit, the D'Kyr, and the Nebula. Cruisers also have 5 T5 ships with the 2 stocks, Refit, Excelsior, and now Odyssey. Escorts only have 3 T5 choices.
I'm pretty new but from browsing the vendor at VA rank cruisers have the dreadnought (not found in other tiers) and for escort there is the multivector ship. But there isn't a completely unique level 50 Science fit, just 1 measley retrofit.

Surely you've noticed this.

at RA upper there are 3 ships: recon sv with more tact slots, LR sv with more eng slots, and of course the vulcan ship with more sci slots. It was interesting and useful, I'd just like a choice to pick from at VA rank too, that's all.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 95
02-10-2012, 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vanlore View Post
Well, there is no reason CC can't be king, Like I said it's a matter of taste. A little bit of buffing in the CC area could make it work. It's not wrong for CC to be King anymore than burst damage.
You've been here longer than I. Though when it comes to game time we have both been here for the most part for the same amount of time. Beta and headstart saw science with a bit too much torque, and the forum outcry that came from it was terrible. We passed through the nerfs, the grandfathered science consoles, (I still have a couple few prototype science consoles), and had to re-adapt our play styles.

Some argue that DPS is king and I am inclined to agree. Most DPS slingers feel that healing in general is OP. and both tend to complain about CC. To me when the complaining is about the same all sides there is a type of balance.

All it takes is a couple of changes to the base math and we are right back to where we were at launch with everyone flying Sci because that is what wins.

That way I see it is right now most fly escort and cruiser because those game appeal to most. Sci requires a bit more for thought to really get the most from it. Did you notice what I just said. Sci is more of a cerebral challenge. To think, this comes from someone who tends to be an escort jock first.

It is for the most part balanced. One science ship, played right, can help destroy another team in PvP. Though you'd never know it when you see the final scoreboard because CC is not reflected on that scoreboard at all.

BRJ; Great to see you back man.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 96
02-10-2012, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoshimura
I'm pretty new but from browsing the vendor at VA rank cruisers have the dreadnought (not found in other tiers) and for escort there is the multivector ship. But there isn't a completely unique level 50 Science fit, just 1 measley retrofit.

Surely you've noticed this.
I think the dreadnought went va only after the season 5/ftp conversion. Prior to that any admiral could fly it. I don't remember about the mvam before ftp as I never bought one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 97
02-10-2012, 06:59 AM
I'm just giving my 2 cents to the OP here even though this has grown to a 10 page monster.

I've always viewed it like this;

Tactical are DPS. They're the Glass Cannons; Deal tons of damage before they kill you. Not to say Tactical cant tank, I've seen some epic tactical tanks out there.

Engineers are the Tanks. They absorb tons of damage and just pound the snot out of you. Their goal is to outlast the enemy.

Science is more of a support/E-War role. They do one of 2 things; They either Support the fleet with buffs and healing, or power transfers, or such, or they are Offensive and they debuff the hell out of an enemy. As mentioned earlier in this topic, A Science vessel can completely shut down an enemy if done right. Sure, your Tactical can do 3x more dps than my science, but its kinda hard to shoot with no power =)

every class and every ship has a role. Just learn to use it and stick with it.

also, I see more and more science vessels at end game than I do mid game. In my experience, science vessels are harder to use in pve missions whilst being alone. Could be that I dont know how to play science, but It could be a reason.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 98
02-10-2012, 08:43 AM
As far as the 'CC' of science goes I still do not see how the damage trade off is worth it. Note, this is boffs not captains, the captain abilities are solid. I repeat, captain abilities are solid.

The variance in power of gravity well I to gravity well III are minor, you use it for the hold not the damage. In that situation gravity well I will suffice.

For power drain it is very hit or miss and difficult to keep up during the entire fight against a big bad (atleast in unorganized groups) for the entire fight. Also, the subsystem target powers are in my opinion better than tekken's rift in that situation for the strait up disable, esp against the borg torpedoes. Also, Aecon Beam is a very underrated ability when it comes to gutting an NPC's damage potential (1/3rd to 2/3rd reduction) and I feel boarding party is very underrated against NPCs where you can reliably land them, 83% chance for subsystem disable, 83% chance for weapon cooldown, and thats per shuttle on a short cooldown. Even if they are not as good they are good enough. Add to that attack pattern Beta/Delta which are in my opinion the best buff/debuff abilities you can pack and I just don't think a science ship brings enough to the table.

Part of the issue is that everything is a hard hitting ability with hard counters. Another problem is the weakness of science skills for their effect on boff ablities. By that I mean graviton doesn't even effect anything at the moment, 92 points in decompiler nets a weak 20% increase in the duration of viral matrix, etc etc. I just don't see what a science ship brings that a cruiser or escort that wanted to couldn't and the skill tree is simply put a trap past tier 3.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 99
02-10-2012, 01:53 PM
In PvP my Science builds, on many occasions will out damage and out heal most of my teammates while running bare minimum weapons power. It comes down to pilot's skill, the pilot's build and having knowledge of what he is using and how to effectively use it. I run the same setup in PvP that I do for PvE and get through my dailies just as quick as anyone else does while running 48/25 weapons power (sounds crazy - I know). I don't spec for energy weapons. I use two beam arrays: 1 forward and 1 rear for target subsystems. Don't believe me? Here's a screenshot of a typical PvP match for me. I'm the 4th one down on the fed side leading the team in damage and heals. It was a mixed group of Sci's, Cruiser's and Escorts that I was in. I'm not posting this to gloat but to simply open some eyes up to the potential of a properly built Science ship. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...19-27-19-1.jpg

There is no problem with Science ships. There are simply too many players out there doing it wrong. A science vessel simply does not DPS the same way that a Cruiser or Escort would and IT SHOULDN'T. A science vessel still has the potential for impressive numbers in the right hands as I have highlighted above. There are just a lot of people out there doing it wrong. Simple as that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 100
02-10-2012, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75
In PvP my Science builds, on many occasions will out damage and out heal most of my teammates while running bare minimum weapons power. It comes down to pilot's skill, the pilot's build and having knowledge of what he is using and how to effectively use it. I run the same setup in PvP that I do for PvE and get through my dailies just as quick as anyone else does all while running 48/25 weapons power (sounds crazy - I know). I don't spec for energy weapons. I use two beam arrays: 1 forward and 1 rear for target subsystems. Don't believe me? Here's a screenshot of a typical PvP match for me. I'm the 4th one down on the fed side leading the team in damage and heals. It was a mixed group of Sci's, Cruiser's and Escorts that I was in. I'm not posting this to gloat but to simply open some eyes up to the potential of a properly built Science ship. http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k2...19-27-19-1.jpg

There is no problem with Science ships. People just do not understand how to set one up that can DPS. A science vessel simply does not DPS the same as a Cruiser or Escort would and it shouldn't. If you expect that it should then you are flying the wrong ship type. A science vessel still has the potential for impressive numbers in the right hands as I have highlighted above. There are just a lot of people out there doing it wrong. Simple as that.
And here is another with the 'use two abilities at just the right time and everything esplodes you guys just suck' types with evidence that has no real use.

First off in that screen shot I noted you rely primarily on projectile weapons that weapon power has no effect on, so by simple extension an escort or cruiser can do more damage than you with the same setup thanks to having more weapon slots. And don't forget, your target shield ability you were using was bugged and now does about a quarter of the energy drain that it used to for you. If you want to argue that the CC abilities make up for the damage potential difference in ship types that is at least something you can debate, but not that they have the same damage potential. Finally I'm pretty sure that only shows hull damage dealt, something that skews the results a bit.

Why don't you give a bit more detail, like the super secret build you use or the perfect time to use those two abilities that causes everyone to esplode? Then perhaps I could try it myself, and find that you are right.
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