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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
02-10-2012, 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
And here is another with the 'use two abilities at just the right time and everything esplodes you guys just suck' types with evidence that has no real use.

First off in that screen shot I noted you rely primarily on projectile weapons that weapon power has no effect on, so by simple extension an escort or cruiser can do more damage than you with the same setup thanks to having more weapon slots. And don't forget, your target shield ability you were using was bugged and now does about a quarter of the energy drain that it used to for you. If you want to argue that the CC abilities make up for the damage potential difference in ship types that is at least something you can debate, but not that they have the same damage potential. Finally I'm pretty sure that only shows hull damage dealt, something that skews the results a bit.

Why don't you give a bit more detail, like the super secret build you use or the perfect time to use those two abilities that causes everyone to esplode? Then perhaps I could try it myself, and find that you are right.
Pffft. You don't have a clue.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
02-10-2012, 03:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
And here is another with the 'use two abilities at just the right time and everything esplodes you guys just suck' types with evidence that has no real use.

First off in that screen shot I noted you rely primarily on projectile weapons that weapon power has no effect on, so by simple extension an escort or cruiser can do more damage than you with the same setup thanks to having more weapon slots. And don't forget, your target shield ability you were using was bugged and now does about a quarter of the energy drain that it used to for you. If you want to argue that the CC abilities make up for the damage potential difference in ship types that is at least something you can debate, but not that they have the same damage potential. Finally I'm pretty sure that only shows hull damage dealt, something that skews the results a bit.

Why don't you give a bit more detail, like the super secret build you use or the perfect time to use those two abilities that causes everyone to esplode? Then perhaps I could try it myself, and find that you are right.
Target Shields was borked for a while but he doesn't rely on power drains so it's not relevant.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
02-10-2012, 11:41 PM
In my opinion , which matters little, Sci vessels are the least useful of ships in combat especially with the focus on STFs as of late for the end game folks.


The have some unique abilities and some nice skills but many if not most can be replicated in other ships with some level of proficiency.

Dps is first and foremost with stfs as we all feel we are under a gun to complete them with haste.

That being said one sci vessel in a group will not hurt but help a group in many regards.....but more then that IMO it becomes a liability....

With other classes you can have many of them escorts and cruisers and see far better returns IMO. They can do many of the sci ships abilities and many of their own......together IMO this makes them far better suited for comabt...

I am sure someone will rebuke and say they did an elite infected run in all sci vessels or that it can be done ....but in practicality i believe i am correct in my observations...

Does a sci vessel offer dps.......not really.....

Does the sci vessel offer survivability? At the cost of others it can....jamming sensors and makinig them attack others.....not the best way to tank but i imagine someone could turn that into a win/win. If you jam the sensors the mob simply attacks someone else and hopefully it is not an escrt who can be more squishy then a sci vessel. The cruiser can tank better by virtue of the ships build and the engineers (hopefully) ability to heal through skills and loadouts coupled with pure size of the ship offering slightly more hull points.

So what does the sci vessel offer? It enhances the pew pew of escrots by weakening shields slightly or shutting them down briefly.....it offers heals to lighten the loads of other cruisers who mightbe healing....some would say superior CC ...yes by sheer strength of the skills alone but because other ships can use many of them...it deludes they usefulness of a sci vessel.....i,e tractors and tykens and gravity well and repulsors and whatnot.

PVP is where sci vessels shine brightly IMO.

Can a group survive without a sci? of course..... Can the same be said about escorts or cruisers......it becomes a more dificult question to answer...but IMO an stf done on elite with no escorts is tough at best.....and to a much lesser degree no cruisers.......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
02-11-2012, 05:05 AM
It's a sad thing when people can't figure out a decent BOff layout and then want to make it an issue with a whole line of ship.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
Does the sci vessel offer survivability? At the cost of others it can....jamming sensors and makinig them attack others.....not the best way to tank but i imagine someone could turn that into a win/win. If you jam the sensors the mob simply attacks someone else and hopefully it is not an escrt who can be more squishy then a sci vessel.
Assuming that such a Science vessel has a Science captain have you ever heard of Science Fleet before? It grants team Damage Reduction to shields. It seems like maybe you didn't know about this.

To be honest, Jam sensors is used by more Escort pilots than Science ships. Jam Sensors or Scramble sensors for ANY PvE content is not a great idea and honestly, there probably aren't very many seasoned Sci's even using these two powers in STF's (if any at all). If there are, they need to have their hands slapped for doing so. Most Sci captains already know that these two powers are only relevant to PvP. Does anyone use these two powers in STF's? If so, it's not the ship's fault that it's pilot made a bad choice. I seriously don't know why you've even bothered to mention Jam and Scramble sensors here. Makes no sense. Nobody uses those powers in STF's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
The cruiser can tank better by virtue of the ships build and the engineers (hopefully) ability to heal through skills and loadouts coupled with pure size of the ship offering slightly more hull points.
I wish I could recall the last time I saw a really good DPS cruiser in an Elite STF let alone one that could or would cross heal teammates and keep themselves alive (not referring to one-shots by the way). I don't know, maybe there are a few that exist. My best teams have been Sci's and Escorts. To me, nothing screams noob more than a non-cross healing wanna-be DPS cruiser (Odyssey) pilot. That's an issue for another thread however. On the other hand, Carriers can be a valuable asset to a group especially when they have siphon drones. I wish more KDF carrier pilot's would use these pets because they are totally sick. BTW If you're thinking that hull tanking is a good idea then you're doing it wrong. Those torpedoes are going to hurt when they land. Shield tanking is the way to go and many would agree that the Nebula is actually the best healboat in the game though the Odyssey could give it a challenge. The Nebula really shines when piloted by an Engineer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
So what does the sci vessel offer? It enhances the pew pew of escrots by weakening shields slightly or shutting them down briefly.....it offers heals to lighten the loads of other cruisers who mightbe healing....some would say superior CC ...yes by sheer strength of the skills alone but because other ships can use many of them...it deludes they usefulness of a sci vessel.....i,e tractors and tykens and gravity well and repulsors and whatnot.
An MVAM can mount a single Gravity Well or Tyken's at the expense of their own survivability which most escort pilots sorely need since there is so little cross healing done in elite pug STF's. Normal STF's are so ridiculously easy that it matters little. A Defiant or Fleet escort can mount neither of those powers. Neither can any Cruiser's except the Odyssey. Any build from an Odyssey that requires directional movement to get an enemy into it's arc just seems like a terrible idea to me. Let's face it, those slow moving borg probes will run circles around this ship. Not saying that can't be done but I'd agree to disagree with whoever on how practical that build really would be (terrible in close quarters). Since those are the two most useful control powers (aside from maybe TBR) I'd see no reason to mention anything else here. A B'Rel can mount anything it wants to due to the Universal layout but at some point it would simply become a Science ship too. You realize that you've just asked every Fed to pilot an MVAM don't you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
Does a sci vessel offer dps.......not really.....
A Science ship, the same as any other, is only as good as it's Captain. If the Captain sucks then the ship likely is going to as well. I have no issues out DPS'ing many escorts and Cruisers in my Sci ships. See my signature if you don't believe me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
Why don't you give a bit more detail, like the super secret build you use or the perfect time to use those two abilities that causes everyone to esplode? Then perhaps I could try it myself, and find that you are right.
You're not getting the keys to the car until you are old enough to drive. Anyhoo, last I recall tac's in Escorts also stack abilities such as APA and FOMM that often make other ship's explode. THAT IS, how the game is played. If I simply ran PvE content with my toons then it would be a non issue. I do, however, primarily PvP with my Science build. Besides that, there is little anyone can prove to you that you don't already think you know and nobody, least of all me, owes you anything. I don't really care how misled you are. I just would hate to see anyone else equip their ship with Tekken's rift is all. You really know your Sci's I must say. **cough** http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...36&postcount=3

Quote:
Originally Posted by garravesh View Post
Can a group survive without a sci? of course..... Can the same be said about escorts or cruisers......it becomes a more dificult question to answer...but IMO an stf done on elite with no escorts is tough at best.....and to a much lesser degree no cruisers.......
A Nebula or Intrepid has the potential to tank just as well or better than most cruisers due to increased shield capacity (and the Intrepid's ablative armor). Even having the ability to be more maneuverable aids their survivability and doesn't have to tie them down to a Tactical team unlike a Cruiser. Don't even get me started on how much Science Fleet owns Engineering Fleet either. Shield tanking is where it is at. I'm not saying that an Engineer can't shield tank but only that a Sci is better. Oh wait, an Engineer can offer up 8 beam arrays and 2 or 3 tactical BOff abilities with no DR debuffs (except squeezing in maybe an APB1 or APD1). Thank goodness for EWP. Oh wait, here comes the Odyssey redeeming the name of DPS wanna-be (non cross-healing) Cruiser captains everywhere. Long live the Har'Peng and BFAW! Groups can and have survived without Escorts and Cruisers on elite STF's. I've been in all Sci groups that just tore through elite Infected space before. It's been done. My best groups have been all Sci's. If anything, the one ship type that groups can do without is Cruisers. This holds especially true for the ones that greed all their own heals.

To the readers: No insult intended to the few good Cruiser captains out there that know a little bit about team play and aren't trying to be Captain Kirk all the time. This game really needs more of you guys.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
02-11-2012, 01:09 PM
nevermind
12345
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
02-11-2012, 01:53 PM
@Rooster
Wow, so a personal attack and trying to discredit an entire argument based on a single misspelling in another thread. Impressive. Alternately you could provide an actual well thought out response to back up your point, something other than a single screen shot that has no context as we do not know the relative equipment, setups, or skill of the other ships. Oh and stay on topic, we are disguising ships not captains, a science captain can fly an escort if they want and still bring sensor scan to the party.

How on earth does with fewer weapon slots, more limited weapon types, weaker boff abilities as far as damage boosting goes, out damage the other ship types assuming an equal level of gear and skill? Please, explain this cause honestly you are full of yourself.

I once did over half the damage (from parsing) in a cure carrier fight using my science ship. Had I been in my escort I would have likely done 3/4ths of the damage. It was because the other people were flying crap builds not because I was in a science ship. Also, that was hull damage when I viewed total damage including shields it was not quite so one sided.

@Militis
I'm just going to agree to disagree with you if that's cool. You feel the abilities (buffs/debuffs/synergy) a sci ship brings to the table is worth the loss in raw damage and I don't. I can see your points though and I do think they are valid, especially when your flying with good players.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
02-11-2012, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreael
How on earth does with fewer weapon slots, more limited weapon types, weaker boff abilities as far as damage boosting goes, out damage the other ship types assuming an equal level of gear and skill? Please, explain this cause honestly you are full of yourself..
You've just made my point. You simply don't understand a Science vessel. There isn't anything wrong with the ship type at all. Dedicate some time to it and I'm certain you will figure it out. It's not up to me to make your builds for you however. You need to do that on your own.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
02-11-2012, 04:25 PM
I don't feel that science powers are weak, in fact, some of them are pretty awesome; but science ships themselves aren't balanced well against other ship types.

Going from T4 to T5, cruiser and escorts get an extra weapon. What does the science ship get?

They don't get any more Boff slots than any other type of ship. They don't get any more console slots than any other type of ship. Their stats do not appear to increase by a significantly greater margin than other types of ship.

They are, quite simply, underpowered at T5. Of course, a science ship's first weapon isn't really its weapons (so to speak), so it isn't hard to compensate for this; but nevertheless, compensate for it is something that every successful science ship flyer has had to do (whether they realise it or not).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
02-11-2012, 06:21 PM
The "problem" is that damage is damn near the only thing that matters in the game.

Alpha for PvP, raw DPS for PvE.

Being able to disable to debuff an enemy doesn't mean much when the other ships just one pass them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
02-11-2012, 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster75
You've just made my point. You simply don't understand a Science vessel. There isn't anything wrong with the ship type at all. Dedicate some time to it and I'm certain you will figure it out. It's not up to me to make your builds for you however. You need to do that on your own.
Yes, that you are wrong. The only thing science has exclusivity on is power drain / shield stripping. As far as damage goes they got nothing, a single extra dual cannon does more damage without powers active than any science power, and with scatter volley it will by itself out damage a gravity well or any other science AoE ability. Well that and confuses which are so ineffective its not even funny. Oh yes at times when Sensor Analysis stacks up your damage becomes respectable but that is all and the target should be dead before that can happen.

Simply put, prove it. And no a single screen shot that has no context is not proof. There is no 'understanding' this game is not that complex. Its mechanics are vague at times but not complex.
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