Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-28-2012, 12:54 PM
Except...real world weapons don't scale. All M16s are the same size. If Andre the Giant (R.I.P.) picked one up, he'd have trouble gripping it and getting his finger in the trigger guard.

So if you're 7 feet tall with hands the size of milk cartons, an ordinary rifle is going to look like a toy in your hands. The same thing should be true in the game.

But I do think most of the weapons seem oversized. Surely in the 25th Century we can make rifles that aren't longer than an average-sized person's leg!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-28-2012, 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripp_Hazzard
Except...real world weapons don't scale. All M16s are the same size. If Andre the Giant (R.I.P.) picked one up, he'd have trouble gripping it and getting his finger in the trigger guard.

So if you're 7 feet tall with hands the size of milk cartons, an ordinary rifle is going to look like a toy in your hands. The same thing should be true in the game.

But I do think most of the weapons seem oversized. Surely in the 25th Century we can make rifles that aren't longer than an average-sized person's leg!
Ok first of all, this is a game. Not the real world. Our characters are not all human and they are not running around with M16s.

Secondly, with LARGE things making up a good portion of your military force (Klingon Empire), wouldn't it make sense that weapons would be made for your larger personnel.

"Gee, those Gorn have hands that are too big to use our weapons correctly... Oh well, it's their fault for being big..."

No, a military force comprised of larger creatures would have weapons that could accommodate their physiology.

If you really want to be nit picky about the subject, what about the Gorn races weapns? Do they not have ANY weapons or did they say: "Ooh we've been conquered, lets get rid of our own appropriately sized weapons and replace them with the Klingons small and ridiculous weapons we can't hold."

If you are going to argue that the Gorn use their bare hands in ground combat, then I am going to argue that we should have Gorn claws and rock chucking that the NPC Gorn have.

In the end, I think it's simpler to just have weapons that scale. Or perhaps just have the Gorn be melee specialists...

-Quiiliitiila
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-29-2012, 10:43 AM
What dude said!
Quote:
Originally Posted by optyk View Post
Odd. I have a large sized Gorn tactical BOFF and melee/ranged weapons look/fit just fine in his hands. You guys have to be making super large characters. Try NOT sliding the scale all the way to the right or left or pay the price...

When I have female BOFFs, they are a little more 'thicker' then a runway model, more athletic and the weapons look fine. Even a real life a M16 or assault type rifle would look large in a woman's hands, unless you make her a giant or something. Weapons don't scale to the human body.

My male BOFFs, including myself can range from 4' to 7' and all the weapons look decent. With a small exception sometimes with Blast Assault or Assault Miniguns, they are actually kinda small and narrow and could be beefed up a little IMO. Polaron and Antiproton are the only 'beefy' ones.

Since were on the topic of weapons, PLEASE change the Antiproton look. They are fugly and remind me of Lascannons that the Eldar use from Warhammer 40k =)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-29-2012, 10:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ivarST
Donīt build these freakishly large creatures then or be prepared to have them run around with bathlets, swords or lirpas only.
STO uses the Champions Online engine I think. So these things are an inbuilt problem.

Also donīt expect it to be solved anytime soon, the smallish art department got bigger fish to fry.
Actually, weapons scale with hand size in Champions Online. If you have smaller hands your swords and hammers will be smaller. If you have giant hands you'll have giant weapons. I always found it strange they didn't scale here like they do there.

edit: in fact it's not just hand size Melee weapons also scale with hand length and arm bulk. Ranged weapons scale with hand size and length but not arm bulk.

Pics:

Melee:

Tiny
Not as Tiny
Big
OMG WORLD ENDER

Ranged:

Tiny
Not as Tiny
Biggest
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-30-2012, 09:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiiliitiila
Ok first of all, this is a game. Not the real world. Our characters are not all human and they are not running around with M16s.

Secondly, with LARGE things making up a good portion of your military force (Klingon Empire), wouldn't it make sense that weapons would be made for your larger personnel.

"Gee, those Gorn have hands that are too big to use our weapons correctly... Oh well, it's their fault for being big..."

No, a military force comprised of larger creatures would have weapons that could accommodate their physiology.

If you really want to be nit picky about the subject, what about the Gorn races weapns? Do they not have ANY weapons or did they say: "Ooh we've been conquered, lets get rid of our own appropriately sized weapons and replace them with the Klingons small and ridiculous weapons we can't hold."

If you are going to argue that the Gorn use their bare hands in ground combat, then I am going to argue that we should have Gorn claws and rock chucking that the NPC Gorn have.

In the end, I think it's simpler to just have weapons that scale. Or perhaps just have the Gorn be melee specialists...

-Quiiliitiila
No, they aren't M16s. That was just an example. But projectile weapons production is standardized to keep costs down, and to keep parts interchangeable. So all [whatever] are made to the same specs, same size, etc.

And this is a Sci Fi game, where the emphasis is on as much reality as the game will bear.

OTOH, you have a very good argument that if we had a real world situation where a significant portion of a military force was of unusual size, some kind of customization would occur so they could use the organization's standard weapons.

And while in the real world, it would probably just be the grips that would be changed, the simplest in-game solution would be to have the entire weapon scale. These are energy weapons, so there's no problem about not using "standard" ammunition. Scaling the entire weapon could be rationalized as putting the same internal parts in a larger housing, so the larger races could handle the weapons more easily.

Objection withdrawn.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-30-2012, 11:43 AM
If I remember correctly, my character who is 4'9"(according to height slider, normal proportions), using a phaser high density beam rifle, looked like she was carrying around something that oughta be a mounted turret and not hand carried. Hell her current mark X disruptor sniper rifle looks crazy long compared to her overall size.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-30-2012, 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripp_Hazzard
No, they aren't M16s. That was just an example. But projectile weapons production is standardized to keep costs down, and to keep parts interchangeable. So all [whatever] are made to the same specs, same size, etc.

And this is a Sci Fi game, where the emphasis is on as much reality as the game will bear.

OTOH, you have a very good argument that if we had a real world situation where a significant portion of a military force was of unusual size, some kind of customization would occur so they could use the organization's standard weapons.

And while in the real world, it would probably just be the grips that would be changed, the simplest in-game solution would be to have the entire weapon scale. These are energy weapons, so there's no problem about not using "standard" ammunition. Scaling the entire weapon could be rationalized as putting the same internal parts in a larger housing, so the larger races could handle the weapons more easily.

Objection withdrawn.
Sorry about my biting tone earlier, I'm used to dealing with far nastier people in other forums.

As was stated above, I agree that having the weapons scale with the hand size would be the best option. Heck all the Devs would have to do is walk (or scoot on a rolling desk chair) down the hall to the Champions office and ask for the hand scaling thingy to be put on a thumb drive. Then walk (or scoot) back to STO and load it up!

I'm sure it's more complicated than that, but it's not like writing new programs... they use a ton of stuff from champions already so we know it's compatible.

-Quiiliitiila
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-31-2012, 12:32 PM
Well, as already covered, they have it in CO, so it seems like it would be easy to implement here.

Of course, I've worked in and with computers more than long enough to know how often "seems" and "actual" aren't even in the same book, much less on the same page.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-01-2012, 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiiliitiila
I vaguely recall seeing a discussion on this topic a long while ago, but I have not heard about it since. I would like to request that the models for ground weapons scale to the users size.

For example:

I have a Gorn captain. My Gorn is rather large. When he equips a weapon it is ridiculously small and shrimpy, most of the time it is so small that it either sinks into his hands or one of his hands (in the case of 2 handed melee or energy weapons) does not even touch the model of the weapon.

For instance when I wield a batleth, my left hand does not even hold the weapon (although it looks like the hand is supposed to be holding something). When I use any type of pistol the weapon barely peeks out of my closed hands.

I say this now because I'd like my Gorn to be able to wield weapons that are sized appropriately to him. Especially the new Honor Guard Rifle, it'd look like a toothpick in my captains hands... D^:

If it is possible I say that the weapons should re-size to match the wielder. Smaller or larger (the same problem occurs with small characters).

Anyone else have this problem?

-Quiiliitiila
Pretend its real life and your 9 foot Gorn is holding an M16....i bet it would look small.

Weapons don't scale in the real world just because some one is small or large. What you need to do is find the biggest weapon possible or make your gorn smaller....i think the Gorn was only about 6 feet tall in TOS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-01-2012, 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmacd View Post
Pretend its real life and your 9 foot Gorn is holding an M16....i bet it would look small.

Weapons don't scale in the real world just because some one is small or large. What you need to do is find the biggest weapon possible or make your gorn smaller....i think the Gorn was only about 6 feet tall in TOS.
You should read the last page or so.
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