Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Help with Dreadnought setup.
01-31-2012, 07:48 PM
I apologize in advance for starting Dreadnought setup thread #789,354. But, I wanted to talk some things over as they pertain to my play style. Oh, I'm a Vice Admiral (50) Human Engineer (Bought my LTS after rolling this character).

I guess we need to start with reasons for picking the Dreadnought.

1) My favorite ship in all of Star Trek cannon is the Constitution-Refit. A very, very close second is the Galaxy Class. Since the Constitution-Refit isn't a viable option at Tier 5...

...

3) The cloak is amazingly useful for getting into position before striking. Well, and, ... I just like it.

...

89) The phaser lance is great for finishing off a large target. I don't use it as an Alpha Strike because, as an Engineer, I lack the Attack Pattern Alpha and Go Down Fighting buff skills. So, I wait until the shield facing is already down before devastating the hull.

Okay, as for my play style. I admit I'm a little selfish with the heals in team play, and I need to get past that, but while delivering damage is great, I have a Tac VA in a Defiant-R for that. I simply want to outlast the bad guys while merrily delivering my broadsides.

Equipment:

Fore weapons: 3x Mk XI Phaser Beam Array [Acc] [Dmg]x2 & 1x Mk XI Quantum Torpedo Launcher [Acc] [Dmg]x2
Def: Borg Deflector
Eng: Borg Engine
Shield: Borg Shield
Aft weapons: 3x Mk XI Phaser Beam Array [Acc] [Dmg]x2 & 1x Mk XI Quantum Torpedo Launcher [Acc] [Dmg]x2
Devices: Shield Batteries, Phaser Turret, Quantum Torpedo Turret, Aux Batteries
Engineering Consoles: Rare Mk XI EPS Flow Regulator, Rare Mk XI Field Generator, Rare Mk XI Plasma Distribution Manifold, and I swap in and out a Combination of Rare Mk XI Diburnium, Electroceramic, and Parametallic Hull Platings depending on what I'm going up against.
Science Consoles: Cloak console, Assimilated console
Tactical Consoles: 2x Rare Mk XI Phaser Relays, 1x Rare Mk XI Zero Point Chamber

Power levels: Setting (Actual base levels in attack mode)
Weapons: 90 (113)
Shields: 50 (80)
Engines 30 (60)
Auxiliary: 30 (60)

Boffs:

Lt. Tactical: Beam Overload 1 & Torpedo High Yield 2 (Alternative: BFaW1 & TS2)
Ens. Tactical: Tactical Team 1
Cmdr. Engineering: Emergency Power to Engines 1, Engineering Team 2, EPtShields 3, and Reverse Shield Polarity 3 (My "Oh, Crap!" button).
Lt. Cmdr. Engineering: ET1, Aux to SIF 1, EPtS 3
Lt. Science: Transfer Shield Strength 1 & Hazard Emitters 2

Good, bad, or indifferent, all comments are welcome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-31-2012, 09:35 PM
Before I begin, some of my comments may be taken as rude... they are not meant that way.

I am a blunt man of integrity and honesty. I state things how they are. I don't beat around the bush, and give you solid reasons for why I say what I do.

That said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudley_Morton
I apologize in advance for starting Dreadnought setup thread #789,354. But, I wanted to talk some things over as they pertain to my play style. Oh, I'm a Vice Admiral (50) Human Engineer (Bought my LTS after rolling this character).

I guess we need to start with reasons for picking the Dreadnought.

1) My favorite ship in all of Star Trek cannon is the Constitution-Refit. A very, very close second is the Galaxy Class. Since the Constitution-Refit isn't a viable option at Tier 5...

...

3) The cloak is amazingly useful for getting into position before striking. Well, and, ... I just like it.

...

89) The phaser lance is great for finishing off a large target. I don't use it as an Alpha Strike because, as an Engineer, I lack the Attack Pattern Alpha and Go Down Fighting buff skills. So, I wait until the shield facing is already down before devastating the hull.

I suppose you CAN do this as an Engineer, but you lose 15% of your damage automatically by doing this as opposed to an opener. This also negates your ability to strip an enemy shield for a devastating torpedo strike follow up, which reduces your burst potential even more.

Essentially, you're running around with a Beam Overload 1 on a 3 minute cooldown. You've effectively made this devastating weapon fairly useless by comparison to what it could/should be.


Okay, as for my play style. I admit I'm a little selfish with the heals in team play, and I need to get past that, but while delivering damage is great, I have a Tac VA in a Defiant-R for that. I simply want to outlast the bad guys while merrily delivering my broadsides.

Equipment:

Fore weapons: 3x Mk XI Phaser Beam Array [Acc] [Dmg]x2 & 1x Mk XI Quantum Torpedo Launcher [Acc] [Dmg]x2
Def: Borg Deflector Bad.
Eng: Borg Engine "Decent" with a good shield with a high cap and defense ratings.
Shield: Borg Shield VERY bad.
Aft weapons: 3x Mk XI Phaser Beam Array [Acc] [Dmg]x2 & 1x Mk XI Quantum Torpedo Launcher [Acc] [Dmg]x2

I want you to stop here. Seriously and with no flame intended.

I want you to take a long moment. I want you to read this equipment layout, and I want you to tell me exactly what it is you're trying to accomplish?

Keep in mind what ship you're in and its strengths/weaknesses. If you have to ask me what these are, you need a different ship.

You won't be sustained DPS. Not with the energy drain of those weapons and Beam Overload AND your Lance. You are running quantums on a broadside build (not only fore, but aft as well). This means you are constantly forced to move back and forth between your best firing arc (broadside) with your front arc every few seconds, effectively cutting your DPS by half every few seconds. You NEED to do this, because your strongest BOFF tactical skill is stuck with a Torpedo ability that you are forced to maximize.

This is bad.

This means that as you're fighting me, I won't need more than 2x EPtS + 1x ET to survive anything you throw at me, while I can pummel you to my heart's content (or your teammates, as you are powerless to help them).

You aren't Burst, because you have absolutely no frontal arc power whatsoever, and a ridiculous amount of energy drain between BO1, the Lance, and 6 beams.

You only have 1 BO that requires the broadside to truly take effect, and even that is considerably weaker than many conventional beam boats.

What exactly is it I'm supposed to fear when I decloak 1km off your broadside or even front, your two most concentrated arcs?

You're not accomplishing anything.


Devices: Shield Batteries, Phaser Turret, Quantum Torpedo Turret, Aux Batteries

Get rid of the Turrets and Aux Batteries. Wasted global cooldown on the battery. Add an Engine Battery to accomodate for your slow movement speed in times you need to turn or retreat to recover in a hurry. Fit in Subspace Field Modulator for some tanking ability in a bind. Red Matter if you have it. Scorpions are an excellent compliment for your Antimatter Spread to confuse enemies.

Again, you have a setup that accomplishes nothing. I can ignore those turrets completely all day long and meanwhile you're not doing anything to make even an Escort worry too much.


Engineering Consoles: Rare Mk XI EPS Flow Regulator, Rare Mk XI Field Generator, Rare Mk XI Plasma Distribution Manifold, and I swap in and out a Combination of Rare Mk XI Diburnium, Electroceramic, and Parametallic Hull Platings depending on what I'm going up against.

Here you're actually not doing too bad. Get rid of the Plasma Distribution Manifold for something more useful. Perhaps another armor plate or the Antimatter Spread module.

Science Consoles: Cloak console, Assimilated console

You're good here. Keep it up.

Tactical Consoles: 2x Rare Mk XI Phaser Relays, 1x Rare Mk XI Zero Point Chamber

You had me at the Phaser Relays, then you lost me with the torp chamber.

As I mentioned above, your Torpedoes are actually hurting you more than helping you. And because it is % based, you're not getting any noticeable increase in power from this method due to the comparatively weak output of your Quantums. Also, your Lance is weakened, which is the only good weapon your ship seems to have equipped.

You're shooting yourself in the foot. This setup is wrong.


Power levels: Setting (Actual base levels in attack mode)
Weapons: 90 (113)
Shields: 50 (80)
Engines 30 (60)
Auxiliary: 30 (60)

Power's fine I suppose... IF you had the power retention to keep up with your weapon and BOFF layout.

Because you don't, and you aren't maximizing your Weapons either, what exactly are you shooting me with?

A BB gun without a CO2 cartridge? Because an Escort won't be hurting after your first volley, and Cruiser probably wouldn't even notice they're even being attacked.


Boffs:

Lt. Tactical: Beam Overload 1 & Torpedo High Yield 2 (Alternative: BFaW1 & TS2)
Ens. Tactical: Tactical Team 1
Cmdr. Engineering: Emergency Power to Engines 1, Engineering Team 2, EPtShields 3, and Reverse Shield Polarity 3 (My "Oh, Crap!" button).
Lt. Cmdr. Engineering: ET1, Aux to SIF 1, EPtS 3
Lt. Science: Transfer Shield Strength 1 & Hazard Emitters 2

I know you're not DPSing, and you're not Bursting. Let's evaluate your other possible combat roles with this layout.

Those possibilities? Healer, Tank, or Support.

You have absolutely 0 CC powers or other means of locking down enemies, so we can completely rule out the Support role immediately.

Your only tractor is a set bonus from a completely obsolete set on a 3 minute cooldown. This means your Lance is almost completely useless even without the problems stated above.

You don't have antimatter spread, a must for this ship in conventional fighting (even Elite STFs).

Meaning you have no direct power behind... well, anything.

To be a healer, you must have the strong ability to cast recovery abilities that are useful to your allies. Healer... first flaw: AtSIF 1. Such a tiny and insignificant heal and boost to defense that in conventional use, you won't even notice it used on yourself, far less your allies. You would at MINIMUM need AtSIF 2, but VERY strongly recommended 3 to be effective for continual use.

ET 1 & 2. Not bad for a secondary healer (not primary). Good job.

Aaaaaaand... that's it.

Your lack of Science Team on a Dreadnought is DEEPLY disturbing to me. All I need to do is cast 1 SubNuc on you, and I have COMPLETELY removed you from the battle. You can't fight, you can't heal, you can't tank. You become militarily irrelevant with this build all by that 1 skill.

Since all competent PvP parties fly around with at least 1 Sci (and by default SubNuc), you walk into a fight already acknowledging you are going to be completely useless once the fighting starts. This is not a good situation to be in.

Hazard Emitters 2. Decent. Not great, but decent.

No Extend Shields, no Science Team, no high-power hull heals... not enough to warrant being called a Healer.

This leaves Tank. Now, your self-cast abilities are good. Great even. 2x EPtS 3's is incredible. RSP 3 is not to be scoffed at (but an incredible waste of a Commander BOFF slot when RSP 1 will work just as good). Your myriad of various low-grade to mediocre hull heals all focusing yourself combined with these resistances would suffice.

You can soak damage. But can you Tank?

To tank, you must present yourself a threat. You must give your enemies a reason to attack you. You have no DPS, so you're not a direct threat to the enemy party as a whole. You have no Burst, so you're not a direct threat to any one person on your enemy party. You aren't a competent healer, which means you aren't a strategic factor to remove from the game to gain an advantage. You can't lock down enemies effectively, which means you won't annoy them enough to make them target you out of necessity.

So you CAN tank... but you aren't going to.

Enemies will target you expecting an easy kill for about 10 seconds, realize you can soak a lot of damage, and decide to pick on your squishy allies because you're not a threat.

You... don't even have a combat role.


Good, bad, or indifferent, all comments are welcome.
What are you trying to accomplish?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-31-2012, 09:41 PM
Hakaishin can you just get someone to sticky your original build guide?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
02-01-2012, 07:36 AM
I really do appreciate the comments, and I'll get into them more later today when I have a chance. But, keep in mind, I don't want to replicate your, obviously very effective, style. I do wholeheartedly concur, though, that anything that works in PvP will do well in PvE, which is where I spend 99.9% of my time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
02-01-2012, 09:37 AM
I fly the Galaxy-X on my Caitian Engineer. Although I can't really detail exactly what I've got equiped on it without looking, I find that designing the Galaxy-X as an Engineer, I typically point more to a offensive tank type setup. I usually try to build into my spec hull, weapons, and things that will help boost my overall ability to heal myself. I also don't use Cannons. I tend to stick more with beam arrays and torp/mine launchers. Much as you mentioned the Engineer doesn't get the attack patterns, so I supplement that with Target Shield Subsystems II (I think.. as mentioned I'm not looking at the spec and just spewing info from memory.)

I find that if you can drop your enemies shields you can combine HY Torps with the Lance for an easy take down. That's usually how I get most of the kills using an Engineer, it's really just a matter of saving the lance for the right time and using it when you can do the most damage. Usually if someone has their shields up, the lance isn't going to do much, but against someones bare hull, that's another story.

As far as gear goes, it's all what you feel personally. I use Phaser Beams, and Quantum Torps and Mines on my build, along with the Borg Engines, Dish, and Console. I use the crafted Aegis shield although the MACO would work in this situation as well. I know I've got some consoles that boost my resistance as well as a boost to my turn rate, and phaser weapons. (Again this is just what I can remember off the top of my head.)

Really it seems I do pretty good in PVP as well as PVE. I have no issues doing Elite mode STF's or PVPing. I usually put out a fair amount of damage in most matches, however fighting against full premades can be an issue. If you are getting focus fired on by several escorts it's pretty much game over no matter what you are flying. Teamwork is ultimately the biggest key in PVP.

Anyway just a few thoughts I figured I would offer up. If you are interested in exactly how i'm spec'd PM me and I can work up something and send it to you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
02-01-2012, 12:31 PM
Are you looking to stay in the Dreadknought because you enjoy the ship too much to pick something else up, or are you trying to maximize your damage output while simultaneously keeping yourself extremely tanky? What is your end goal?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
02-01-2012, 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakaishin
Before I begin, some of my comments may be taken as rude... they are not meant that way.

I am a blunt man of integrity and honesty. I state things how they are. I don't beat around the bush, and give you solid reasons for why I say what I do.

That said...



What are you trying to accomplish?
I think a lot of your comments might change if the goal is to do, say, a soloing build. Or an STF build. And ignore PvP viability entirely.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
02-01-2012, 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dudley_Morton
I really do appreciate the comments, and I'll get into them more later today when I have a chance. But, keep in mind, I don't want to replicate your, obviously very effective, style. I do wholeheartedly concur, though, that anything that works in PvP will do well in PvE, which is where I spend 99.9% of my time.
This is true. If you plan to spend 5% of your time in PvP, you probably have to build around that.

If you want to throw out PvP as an option, that opens up more PvE builds though, something I think our PvP players tend to dismiss.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
02-01-2012, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leviathan99
I think a lot of your comments might change if the goal is to do, say, a soloing build. Or an STF build. And ignore PvP viability entirely.
No such thing as an end-game solo build. What are you soloing, exactly?

There is no such thing as end game solo content.

STF build directly relates to a PvP build in that if a build is strong in PvP, by default it is FLAWLESS in PvE, to include Elite STFs.

I never swap builds. I take the EXACT same setup in PvP as I do in PvE. I am a monster in both.

Ignoring PvP viability has nothing to do with efficient starship design.

I notate PvP because the tactics for construction WORK. They'll work in PvE.

Will his build kill Nanite Spheres? Sure.

But then, my all-white Mk I geared Miranda can do that (and I have. I can submit video if you want proof).

Is it best? HELL NO.

He asked for feedback to make his build BETTER.

HOW do I do that, if "everything is good enough"?

In that case, take whatever. Why even post a build?

EVERYTHING will perform in an elite STF.

Or, I can tell you what you would be wise to change to see an increase in performance, to enter an entirely higher league of skill and tact in the game, to get far more enjoyment out of it.

Take your pick.

If you don't want advice however, don't ask for it and shut up.

If you do, be ready to take advice you may not initially agree with.
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