Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
02-04-2012, 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
In the recent the Prioity One Podcast and Al Rivera talked about Cryptic and the Roddenberry Rules regarding ship designs. And that got me thinking, why did the BortaS design get approved if it clearly violated this traditional Trek rule?

If you look, the Bortas has 0 line of sight between the two Nacelles, while all canonical Trek ships (Romulan, Federation, and Klingon) obeyed this simple rule. Even the Negh'var follows this rule.



So is Cryptic throwing out this rule now? Or can we see the Bortas getting a small revamp to obey the rule?
That rule was thrown out a long time ago. A few examples:

Federation:
Type 15 shuttle
Danube class
Defiant class
Peregrine attack fighter
Maquis Raider (Chakotay's ship)
Intrepid class
Raven (Hansen's ship)
Delta Flyer
Saber class
Wells class

Cardassian ships.

Ferengi ships

Kazon ships

Romulan Scout ship / Science ship (same basic model)

Son'a Destroyer

Xindi Primate ship

Breen Warship

Hirogen ships

Voth ships

Krenim ships

Zahl ships

and obviously... Borg ships.


Point is... "Roddenburry's rules" don't apply anymore.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
02-05-2012, 08:24 AM
Just wanted to pop in and say: Most Gorn ships follow the rules, because there is a whole cut out of the hull between the forward parts of the nacelles. Really, very clever design.

The defiant is also often sited as not having line of sight with eachother, but that is why the nacelles are swept down and there is an indentation under the main hull.

The Danube also meets the requirement because the nacelles hang down just barely beneath the main hull, thus giving them 50% height wise as apposed to lengthwise.

But yah, a lot of the ships don't..... mostly alien ships though.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
02-05-2012, 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chat
Remember the other rules.
3 nacelles are out(AGT-Galaxy was a special case. Something about 3 pairs. so 6 "nacelles" in all?).
Has to have 100% visibility from the front.
Bridge must be at the top of the saucer..
It was explained that with the Galaxy-X, the Freedom, and the Niagra classes had a duel coil system that made it similar to like a Quad system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chat
Ambassador class has nacelles which are slightly obstructed by the saucer. Violates the rules which mean we can't have that ship in game. :p (just teasing)
And so does the Excelsior. Really the worst offender. and the refit got impulse engines in front of the nacelles...
Saber class is shady. Does its nacelles have 50% line of sight between each other?
Promethus is another one. (the lower nacelles)
Defiant. Does it even have a saucer so to speak? And nacelles are probably not looking at eachother much either.
The Raven. Well it is a starship. Nacelles wont be waving at eachother any time soon.

And the Negh'var is debatable at best. Only it's lower half of the nacelles seem to have los.
It's such a split up nacelle.
Not sure if you're joking or not, but all of these ships do meed the 50% line of sight. Except the Raven, but then again it's not a Starfleet ship, but a civilian ship.

And the Negh'var does meet it. The wings are bent downward and not straight out as people think it is. But the lower half of the nacelles are in sight of one another, which makes it legal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
The "Roddenberry Rule" only ever applied to Federation (StarFleet) starships. Alien ships (including Klingons, Gorn, et al.) are exempt. (The 'rule' was adopted after GR had problems with some aspects of the Fraz-Joeseph "Star Fleet Technical Manual" (circa 1975) such as the one-nacelled scouts and destroyers. The 'rule' came in with GR's involvement in the feature films and TNG series.
It was also included for Romulan and Klingon designs as well. Unless you like to find me a canonical design that never did this. (Which the only exception is the Narada as far as I know).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amosov
It wouldn't be the first ship to violate this rule, the Raven's warp engines don't have any clear line of sight with each other for example.
But the thing is, it's a civilian ship. So is it a technicality?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
02-05-2012, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuatela
That rule was thrown out a long time ago. A few examples:

Federation:
Type 15 shuttle
Danube class
Defiant class
Peregrine attack fighter
Maquis Raider (Chakotay's ship)
Intrepid class
Raven (Hansen's ship)
Delta Flyer
Saber class
Wells class

Cardassian ships.

Ferengi ships

Kazon ships

Romulan Scout ship / Science ship (same basic model)

Son'a Destroyer

Xindi Primate ship

Breen Warship

Hirogen ships

Voth ships

Krenim ships

Zahl ships

and obviously... Borg ships.


Point is... "Roddenburry's rules" don't apply anymore.
Judging from your list of Federation ships, you clearly do not know what "line of sight" means.
  • Type 15 Shuttle: http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...lepod_rear.jpg

    Half of the Shuttlepod's nacelles clearly are visible underneath.
  • Danube-class: Like the shuttlepod, half of the warp nacelles are visible underneath.
  • Perergrine Attack Fighter: Warp Nacelles clearly visible between one another at the rear of the fighter.
  • Maquis Raider: Half of the nacelles visible underneath.
  • Defiant-class: The Nacelles are 2 decks lower than the main hull of the Defiant.

    Just look at the forward and rear, the nacelles are lower than the main hull of the ship, which clearly meet up with line of sight.
  • Intrepid-class: Last I checked, the Nacelles raise when you are in warp.
  • Delta Flyer: Nacelles are lower than the hull. Just like the Type 15 and Danube.
  • Saber Class: Over 50% of the Nacelles are visible from the underside.
  • Wells Class: Wings are bent and Nacelles are in light of sight (like the Negh'var).
  • Raven Class: The only exception. But the Raven is a civilian ship and not Starfleet. So this can be regarded as a technicality.
  • Romulan Scout Ship: Double Hull like the D'deridex, and is hollow in the middle.

As for the other alien ships, they are NOT Federation, Klingon, or Romulan. So I'm not going to even comment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
02-05-2012, 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Judging from your list of Federation ships, you clearly do not know what "line of sight" means.
  • Type 15 Shuttle: http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...lepod_rear.jpg

    Half of the Shuttlepod's nacelles clearly are visible underneath.
  • Danube-class: Like the shuttlepod, half of the warp nacelles are visible underneath.
  • Perergrine Attack Fighter: Warp Nacelles clearly visible between one another at the rear of the fighter.
  • Maquis Raider: Half of the nacelles visible underneath.
  • Defiant-class: The Nacelles are 2 decks lower than the main hull of the Defiant.

    Just look at the forward and rear, the nacelles are lower than the main hull of the ship, which clearly meet up with line of sight.
  • Intrepid-class: Last I checked, the Nacelles raise when you are in warp.
  • Delta Flyer: Nacelles are lower than the hull. Just like the Type 15 and Danube.
  • Saber Class: Over 50% of the Nacelles are visible from the underside.
  • Wells Class: Wings are bent and Nacelles are in light of sight (like the Negh'var).
  • Raven Class: The only exception. But the Raven is a civilian ship and not Starfleet. So this can be regarded as a technicality.
  • Romulan Scout Ship: Double Hull like the D'deridex, and is hollow in the middle.

As for the other alien ships, they are NOT Federation, Klingon, or Romulan. So I'm not going to even comment.
The Raven was retconned to be a Starfleet vessel, hence it being referred to later as USS Raven in official Starfleet records. If the Raven is a technicality because it isn't a Starfleet vessel, then why is it an issue that the Bortas' engines don't have line of sight? It's an "alien" ship after all. The Roddenberry Rules regarding ship designs, can't be a one rule for one and not the other. They must apply to all ships, regardless of race and type.

Concerning the Raven, we could infer that they either no longer cared about it at the time, or that warp nacelles don't necessarily have to have line of sight with each other, but that it is preferred that they do for better warp efficiency.
Lt. Commander
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# 16
02-05-2012, 06:19 PM
Somebody mentioned the Galaxy-X's exception: Each of the Galaxy's nacelle housing had two coils, effectively making each a pair meeting the line of site requirement.

Take a look at the Bortas nacelles. The grilles normally on the sides of Klingon nacelles are on the top, they're taller than they are wide, and the windows imply there's an open space down the middle that's larger than the typical service area we saw on TNG and Enterprise. I think the Galaxy-X exception could be invoked here with each nacelle having two coils stacked vertically.

It's a stretch, but Star Trek's canon has proved that no matter how strict the rules are, with a little BS you can do anything within them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
02-05-2012, 07:55 PM
Any and all Roddenberry rules became invalid with how insane the man got with what Star Trek was about

And the Bortas isn't that bad... it reminds me of the ship used in those mirror universe DS9 episodes
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
02-05-2012, 08:14 PM
Regarding the mythology of the Roddenberry Rule (guideline), I agree that whatever he said pertained to Starfleet vessels only. As a consistent design scheme of familiar visual cues. Though I honestly couldn't tell you where I read that the first time. Though I don't recall anything implying its application to anything beyond Starfleet warp technology. Additional treknobabble would likely have come from anyone but Roddenberry after he was dead. I recall fan objections over annular warp drive on Vulcan starships. I don't believe that the rule (guideline) was ever meant to apply in that way.

TNG is where the warp coil component was introduced. Having since been retroactively applied to Earth ships with warp capability. Star Trek Enterprise solidifying this. So whether us old fogies like it not, the TOS Constitution obviously carried tech in the same way.

Remember, that refit Enterprise-D model showed up years after Roddenberry had died. I find the interpretation of nacelle coils in pairs as how to get around odd numbered nacelles to be questionable. Is this taken from a canon or soft-canon resource? Or are we discussing a fanon resource (some of which are better than canon at times). And which one? I just assumed we weren't supposed to ask about that third nacelle. Just be awed by presumably more power of some kind (despite the fact that Starfleet starship power isn't understood to be generated in this way).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
02-05-2012, 08:59 PM
Canon reference. It was mentioned in the episode Eye of the Beholder, and it's actually visible in some shots where the bussard collectors aren't fully lit - you can see that inside the transparent outer cover there are actually two collectors, corresponding to the two separate sets of coils.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File...se-D,_2364.jpg

Visible on the left in this image, there are some better images from the later CGI models, but the feature was there from the beginning.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
02-06-2012, 12:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hevach View Post
Canon reference. It was mentioned in the episode Eye of the Beholder, and it's actually visible in some shots where the bussard collectors aren't fully lit - you can see that inside the transparent outer cover there are actually two collectors, corresponding to the two separate sets of coils.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File...se-D,_2364.jpg

Visible on the left in this image, there are some better images from the later CGI models, but the feature was there from the beginning.
The number of collectors corresponded to the number of coils or rather pairs? The Sovereign class has 3 collectors in each nacelle. So it has 6 sets divided into 3 pairs for each nacelle?

Aren't they just more than glorified fuel collectors that can technobabble when the episode needs it?
The only thing that a greater number of collectors can correspond to is the ship being huge and needing more... Collectors or something.
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