Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
03-02-2012, 03:03 AM
As was said earlier in this thread, the ship classification basically goes out of the window in emergencies anyway. Two canon examples from the TV series/Movies:

1: Best of Both Worlds/ Emissary - the battle of Wolf 359. At least one Oberth class ship was present - the USS Bonestell NCC-31600. A Constitution-class engineering hull was also clearly viewed which suggests that Starfleet either fielded a training ship or pulled one of the class out of mothballs due to the severity of the situation.

2: Nemesis (movie) - USS Nova, NCC-73515, allocated to Battle Group Omega, the task-force assigned to intercept Shinzon/the Scimitar. Granted, it wasn't actually seen as such but there really isn't any reason to believe that it isn't the prototype ship of the Nova class.
(not to mention that Battle Group Omega seemed to have a 'first of the class' theme anyway with USS Intrepid NCC-74600 , USS Galaxy NCC-70637 and USS Nova NCC-73515 being part of that group)

And again, for those basically saying that the Nova class is useless - I again present to you the refit, which was clearly seen in 'Endgame' holding it's own against two Klingon ships and was clearly stated to have been on a four-year deep space exploration mission. Memory Alpha states that refit also had superior tactical firepower and shield strength to that of its predecessor and was designed for long term deep space assignments". So I care not what others say about the class it seems pretty damn clear that the only reason that the Nova class has such limitations is that Starfleet designed the class that way; but the refit stands as evidence that, with a few modifications, it becomes a very capable little ship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 72
03-02-2012, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the nova is a survey ship, it maps uncharted space that the larger explorer types have already passed through, that's scouting in a non tactical sense. the intrepid was more of a tactical scout, a rapid response light cruiser that could out run and out scan just about anything it would come up against, but not out gun.

nearly all starfleet ships are multi role vessels designed to conduct all manner of scientific and tactical missions. very few ships were designed to be 100% science vessels, the oberth and non starfleet vulcan ships are just about the only examples of this, though im sure there are plenty of miranda's and other smaller, older ships refit to be pure science vessels.

cruiser is an accurate description for about 90% of all of starfleet's ship classes.
I always thought of the Intrepid class a more of an analog to the "Yankee Frigates". Which were basically interdiction ships commissioned to discourage piracy of U.S. merchant ships (in equal measure by stopping pirates and by preemptively capturing other nation's merchant ships). They were fast, and atypically tough/well armed for a frigate of their day, but they ran the hell away if the came across a ship of the line (random anecdotes about Constitution not withstanding).

Part of this concept came from Voyager being smaller and faster than the Galaxy or Nebula class. But also from Voyager's first mission being to track down Maquis.
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# 73
03-02-2012, 02:12 PM
I think the bigger problem here is that Cryptic has taken all ships in Starfleet, and bunched them into roles to fit a gameplay element, when the reality is (or canon if you will) that very few ships in Starfleet had a specific role.

When you think of role specific Starfleet ships, what comes to mind?

Oberth - Purely scientific role. The ship was not designed for many other functions besides research or cargo hauling.

Defiant - The ship was designed for the sole purpose of punching the Borg in the nose.

Prometheus - I would also maintain that like the Defiant, this ship was designed purely as an attack ship.

Outside of these ships, do any Starfleet vessels have a particular role?

I would have to say no. We saw a variety of ships, used in a variety of different ways, both in the TV series and movies, as well as in non-canon books. This would seem to suggest that the majority of Starfleet ships don't have a set purpose per se, but rather, the mission the captain is assigned, determines the use of the ship.

My personal thinking is that the ships in STO should all have Universal BO slots, which would allow the players to decide what ships they want to use, and how they want to use them. In my opinion, this would give STO a much more realistic feel in ship utilization, rather than the current system which in a way, locks in players to particular ships, based on their profession.
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# 74
03-02-2012, 03:46 PM
To those saying the Nova (or any other given class of ship) is too slow to be a scout, what makes speed the prime criteria for a scout vessel?

From TOS, the Hermes class scout and Saladin class destroyer both have the same displacement. The difference isn't speed but electronics. If you can see the enemy before they see you, you don't need to be faster.

One of my peeves in STO is that science vessels seem to have similar weapons mounts to cruisers. They should have not just more science stations but fewer weapons and more sensory/countermeasures capacity.
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# 75
03-02-2012, 03:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by C_Carmichael View Post
I think the bigger problem here is that Cryptic has taken all ships in Starfleet, and bunched them into roles to fit a gameplay element, when the reality is (or canon if you will) that very few ships in Starfleet had a specific role.

When you think of role specific Starfleet ships, what comes to mind?

Oberth - Purely scientific role. The ship was not designed for many other functions besides research or cargo hauling.

Defiant - The ship was designed for the sole purpose of punching the Borg in the nose.

Prometheus - I would also maintain that like the Defiant, this ship was designed purely as an attack ship.

Outside of these ships, do any Starfleet vessels have a particular role?.
Actually over the course of TNG (and even more so, DS9), the Federation moved from multipurpose exploration vessels to dedicated warships such as the defiant.

Even the later versions of the Enterprise were much more heavily armed (not just bigger/better guns, but more mountings too). This was in direct response to the Borg threat.

Even so, there were dedicated ships even as far back as TOS. The Federation had destroyers and scouts and dreadnaughts... we just didn't really see them since the show was based around a heavy cruiser rigged for exploration.
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# 76
03-02-2012, 04:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtlewing View Post
I always thought of the Intrepid class a more of an analog to the "Yankee Frigates". Which were basically interdiction ships commissioned to discourage piracy of U.S. merchant ships (in equal measure by stopping pirates and by preemptively capturing other nation's merchant ships). They were fast, and atypically tough/well armed for a frigate of their day, but they ran the hell away if the came across a ship of the line (random anecdotes about Constitution not withstanding).

Part of this concept came from Voyager being smaller and faster than the Galaxy or Nebula class. But also from Voyager's first mission being to track down Maquis.
thats pretty close to what i think the purpose of the intrepid is too. that and short term long range exploration, as apposed to a galaxy class being a long term, long range explorer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Actually over the course of TNG (and even more so, DS9), the Federation moved from multipurpose exploration vessels to dedicated warships such as the defiant.

Even the later versions of the Enterprise were much more heavily armed (not just bigger/better guns, but more mountings too). This was in direct response to the Borg threat.

Even so, there were dedicated ships even as far back as TOS. The Federation had destroyers and scouts and dreadnaughts... we just didn't really see them since the show was based around a heavy cruiser rigged for exploration.
they didnt move away from multi purpose, they just started building a few more purpose built classes.

its important to remember with phaser arrays that it doesn't mater how many a ship has, its how long the arrays are and how complete is the fireing arc coverage of the largest arrays. the akira class for example does just fine with 3 phaser arrays, 1 large dorsal that effectively covers fore and aft, and the 2 smaller ventral that can also cover fore and aft. the only reason ships have an excess of small arrays is to cover gapes in the large array's firing arcs, so there is at least some firepower if a small maneuverable ship hides in the blind spots.

names like heavy cruiser, destroyer, and battleship are historically size based ship descriptions, not to be confused with a ship's role like explorer, scout, or escort. the nova is a frigate or corvette, its role is that of a surveyor or non tactical scout
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# 77
03-02-2012, 05:41 PM
Quote:
they didnt move away from multi purpose, they just started building a few more purpose built classes.

its important to remember with phaser arrays that it doesn't mater how many a ship has, its how long the arrays are and how complete is the fireing arc coverage of the largest arrays. the akira class for example does just fine with 3 phaser arrays, 1 large dorsal that effectively covers fore and aft, and the 2 smaller ventral that can also cover fore and aft. the only reason ships have an excess of small arrays is to cover gapes in the large array's firing arcs, so there is at least some firepower if a small maneuverable ship hides in the blind spots.

names like heavy cruiser, destroyer, and battleship are historically size based ship descriptions, not to be confused with a ship's role like explorer, scout, or escort. the nova is a frigate or corvette, its role is that of a surveyor or non tactical scout
Traditionally (TOS), arcs were based on ship concept and placement. Ships were meant to fight forward, with relatively little in the way of aft guns, and none of the 'dogfighting' of later incarnations of trek. This makes a lot of sense when you consider sensor ranges and FTL capable ships. (In fact, STO weapon ranges are absurdly small, considering impulse can reach light speed and the weapons are FTL).

Regardless, you don't call an ocean liner a crusier or carrier, even if it has the same displacement. Just because the Nova is on the same hull as a frigate does not make it a frigate, any more than you would call a minesweeper a frigate.... or call a Hermes class scout a Saladin class destroyer, even though they were on exactly the same hull.
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# 78
03-02-2012, 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimmera
Traditionally (TOS), arcs were based on ship concept and placement. Ships were meant to fight forward, with relatively little in the way of aft guns, and none of the 'dogfighting' of later incarnations of trek. This makes a lot of sense when you consider sensor ranges and FTL capable ships. (In fact, STO weapon ranges are absurdly small, considering impulse can reach light speed and the weapons are FTL).

Regardless, you don't call an ocean liner a crusier or carrier, even if it has the same displacement. Just because the Nova is on the same hull as a frigate does not make it a frigate, any more than you would call a minesweeper a frigate.... or call a Hermes class scout a Saladin class destroyer, even though they were on exactly the same hull.
the old pen and paper starfleet battle system is much more realistic really, but star trek legacy/STO type of combat is funner, and looks more like the late 90s trek combat.

i doubt you would call civilian vessels cruisers or what have you in the oceans and in space. starfleet is a military though so its ships are classified as such.
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# 79
03-02-2012, 06:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dontdrunkimshoot View Post
the old pen and paper starfleet battle system is much more realistic really, but star trek legacy/STO type of combat is funner, and looks more like the late 90s trek combat.

i doubt you would call civilian vessels cruisers or what have you in the oceans and in space. starfleet is a military though so its ships are classified as such.
In WWII ocean liners were pressed into military service, mostly as troop ships, but also as hospital ships, and (in the case of the Japanese) as carriers.

Hulls are hulls. They function based on what is done with them. And the pen and paper starfleet battles (well mostly dice and cardboard counters) was based (mostly) on canon (i.e. the technical manual).
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