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# 51
02-07-2012, 09:05 AM
During DS9 series, starfleet had carriers. The episode where starfleet abandon DS9 during the opening scene you see a carrier and its fighters.

Starfleet would use a carrier for multiple roles. A fighter carrier, klingons had fighters that would be hard for large starships to really hit, requiring fighters to counter those. Carrier would hold large groups of combat troops and the shuttles required to deploy them. Carrier would also be a platform for moving large groups of shuttles/fighters to other parts of the region.
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# 52
02-07-2012, 09:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issueman
During DS9 series, starfleet had carriers. The episode where starfleet abandon DS9 during the opening scene you see a carrier and its fighters.
Screenshot, please.
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# 53
02-07-2012, 09:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pondara
Like I said, this makes no sense since they have been at war for decades, that may have been the design philosophy at one time yes but if that hasn't changed by the time the game takes place, where peacetime hasn't been the norm for decades, than the UFP deserved to get conquered.

Take WWII for instance, the allied nations weren't necessarily aggressive nations with the most advanced military, but from the start in 1939 to the end in 1945 those nations quickly learned that they need to make advancements in their armaments to compete and win and during those 6 years, military technology and just tech in general advanced in leaps and bounds.

Now you can't tell me that in the decades of war that the Federation has been in, they haven't realized that "hey, if we built warships and trained soldiers for war, than we could end this war(s) sooner and put an end to the killing."
Also, you do realize that the war we're involved in now didn't start until 2404, right? The Federation has been at war for five years, the 25 years previous to that were spent doing Exploration, Scientific Research, and Diplomacy.

The Federation is always working for peace. Their Starship Design Philosophy reflects that. The Empire is always preparing for War, even if no War is on the Horizon, their Starship Design Philosophy reflects that.
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# 54
02-07-2012, 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Issueman
During DS9 series, starfleet had carriers. The episode where starfleet abandon DS9 during the opening scene you see a carrier and its fighters.
Wrong, you see a Starship alongside Warp-capable Fighter craft. Until we see, in a show or movie, a Starfleet ship launching or recovering Fighters, Starfleet doesn't have Carriers.
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# 55
02-07-2012, 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Asakara
In my own opinion I think it is due to sensitivity to losses and fighter pilots on their first combat op having a life expectancy measured in 10's of seconds.

18 years to give birth to and raise a child from infant to adulthood and then 2+ years at the academy.. All for maybe 30 seconds of pew pew prior to being popped.

I think you would have better odds of surviving a round of Russian roulette over surviving a single combat op in a fighter in STO. At least you have a 1 in 6 chance of death with only a gun to your head.. Where a single fighter op is almost a sure thing in my opinion.

With all that said a kitty carrier would still be spiffy.

That just might sum up the philosophical difference as to why UFP does not have carriers and KDF does.

For KDF "Its a good day to die" ... in battle so not only would it but culturally ok but each warrior would be personally ok with the concept (more or less).

On the UFP side it would most likely be different "OMG you sent my son out to die in that little tin can with no chance at all ?!?!?! *swoon* "

So yeah, MMO-wise it may suck that kdf has carriers and not UFP but it does make sense Star Trek universe -wise
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# 56
02-07-2012, 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colonel_Taev View Post
Precisely. The Federation is slowly waking up to this fact. )
You know, I find this observation interesting and intriguing, because it has all sorts of implications.

The Federation does not exist in a vacuum. It has numerous stellar neighbors, including the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians -- all rather totalitarian and/or hyperaggressive regimes. The Federation is held up as an experiment of unity and cooperation, of principles that do not include aggressive action. 'Here is our space; leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.'

The implication is that the Federation is *unique* in this. That other polities are not nearly as tolerant or diverse and that the Feds are considered weak for their principles. It's likely that for the past few thousand years, since the fall of empires like the Iconians, the Shedai, and Tkon (and depending on how those empires were run, maybe since well before their falls) the galaxy has naturally been dog-eat-dog. To survive, you must be the aggressor. Do unto others before they do unto you. Even the Vulcans as depicted in ENT were rather more... assertive than those of later eras. They probably told themselves they didn't *want* to be tools, but that it was a neccessary survival trait. (C.f. the listening post at P'jem.)

The Federation rejected that. Cooperation, unity, diversity, mutuality. Pursuing peace before war, and even rejecting si vas pacem, para bellum to some extent. Non-interference (for all the sorrow that policy caused, it can be seen as not only important to prevent cultural self-destruction but in a metaplot sense, it could have been a reaction to the games the USA and USSR played via proxies during the Cold War.) Basically, the Feds are openly laughed at and derided as being idealists in a big, cold universe... but after a couple hundred years, with only a few shaky points, it's still around. That might not be much to other polities that have been around for twice that or longer, but... I wonder if the Federation's surprising stability wasn't one of the key points that the Klingons kept in mind when they came to the negotiation tables at Khitomer.

But as you pointed out, the Federation is changing. The uniforms are starting to harken back to the Monster Maroons of the Fed's military renaissance. Block III Defiants are being built in numbers, and 'escort' is an accepted and admitted (c.f. Sisko) euphemism for 'warship.' Despite Sisko and the admiral pouring out their goblets of bloodwine on the ground (and they should be glad Martok had become 'culturally aware' enough to recognize that they were not purposely mortally insulting him!) they still celebrated the end of the Dominion War with a party. The Federation has had another taste of militarism... and it likes it.

The new war with the Klingons, the Long War, the resurgence of the Romulan Empire, and looming above all else, the Borg.... The Federation likes to make friends out of its enemies, but it's starting to adopt some militarism to protect itself. The Borg is the most direct example: It is an enemy that you cannot negotiate with, that you cannot convince to go away, that you cannot do aught but fight. Perhaps there are many such threats in the galaxy which is why authoritarian, aggressive regimes thrive but the Federation is seen as unique and unusual. The Borg are the embodiment of a cold, uncaring universe. Between the Dominion War and the Borg, the Federation might have finally reached the end of its patience with being peaceful and is entering a third or fourth military renaissance because of it.

Si vas pacem, para bellum, probably much to the chagrin and anger of Picard, despite him quoting Lord Nelson and Ahab.
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# 57
02-07-2012, 09:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarria
In a world where we are creating holographic duty officers in our replicators to send off to certain death, I don't see why we couldn't apply the same technology to fighter pilots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorosh15
And you said before I could say it. And we all know that the Holograms can fight because in the first episodes on the fed side you fight a hologram that has gone crazy, murders someone when you are on the other side of the door and then tries to kill you and your team.
Path to 2409: 2394

The Doctor is ruled to be a sentient life-form by the Federation Supreme Court and therefore has a right to his Mobile Holographic Emitter. The ruling also lays down a set of conditions under which an artificial life-form is considered an sentient being.


Any Holographic Combat Pilot Program that matches the sophistication and performance of a biological pilot is virtually guaranteed to qualify as a Sentient being under Federation law. What you're proposing is no different than considering an entire race to be expendable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vorosh15
And who says a carrier has no expolartion, diplomatic, or peaceful uses and purposes. Just look at today aircraft carriers. The US can put them anywhere in the world they want to, and most of the time an aircraft carrier showing up at the other guys doorstep is enough to difuse most tense situtions. The aircraft carrier rarely have to do anything other than just show up. As for expolartion, how many times have Fed starships gone into things that they probably should have stayed away from? How many times do we just fly into a pocket of this strage gas head first? Sure we scan first but sometimes the scan gets blocked and when that happens its oh well, guys we have to go inside it to get a scan. Why not just send in one little fighter type ship luanched from a carrier being piloted by a hologram, then if there is something bad in there you lose a cheap fighter and a hologram instead of losing or damaging a big ship and killing off her crew.
As to your non-combat uses of a Carrier, none of that necessitates a Carrier, and none of it is Diplomatic, Exploratory, or Scientific. All of which can just as easily be done by the ships we have. Just because a shot isn't fire doesn't mean it's a peaceful tactic. You've listed intimidation and threat tactics, all aggressive, all are things the Federation just doesn't do.

And again, Holograms are Sentient Federation Citizens now. What you've proposed is Probe work, and we already have those (in canon, though not in game, but I'd be open to the probe console giving you a "Launch Probe" power that lets you scout ahead).

You have to start thinking of Holograms the same way you would think of Data or the (original) Exocomps. Artificial, yes, expendable, No.
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# 58
02-07-2012, 09:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Wrong, you see a Starship alongside Warp-capable Fighter craft. Until we see, in a show or movie, a Starfleet ship launching or recovering Fighters, Starfleet doesn't have Carriers.
But you never see the KDF with them either, in movie or TV Show. Ever. So what's the difference? At least Starfleet had fighter craft. The KDF didn't even have that.
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# 59
02-07-2012, 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprint01
But you never see the KDF with them either, in movie or TV Show. Ever. So what's the difference? At least Starfleet had fighter craft. The KDF didn't even have that.
That's not actually the point.
The point is that a statement has been made:
there were carriers in that scene.
Where?
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# 60
02-07-2012, 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by V-Mink
Between the Dominion War and the Borg, the Federation might have finally reached the end of its patience with being peaceful and is entering a third or fourth military renaissance because of it.
It does not surprise me that the federation is starting to aproach war as the only solution to the immediate problems it faces. They have done it before.
What I would like though is the KDF to be allowed to actaully continue to pursue thier economic and cultural inclination for conquest and war without feeling that everytime a new vessel or combat idea pops up Klinkside it will be nerfed to accomidate the current peace loving federation setting.
I cite the recent Odysses and BortaS as an example. The Odysses is considered a exploration vessel first, the flagship of the federation peace keeping armada, and its design lends to that purpose. The BortaS though was a good design for a flagship meant to be a weapon simple but effective, until it was changed to keep it more balanced in combat and not out distance the Odysses as a combat vessel.
I think thats an unfairness to the KDF designed vessels and welcome the federation finally entering the war effort in the hopes that future KDF vessels will not be handicapped anymore to allow the peaceful feds a chance at playing soldier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
The Federation is always working for peace. Their Starship Design Philosophy reflects that. The Empire is always preparing for War, even if no War is on the Horizon, their Starship Design Philosophy reflects that until nerfed to keep them from being too capable at that which they use to drive thier economy.
I had to add that as the embiitered Klingon that I am.
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